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Trump TFG

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I added TFG / The Former Guy as a name for Trump. It was immediately reverted on the grounds that it's not in common usage. I'd say it's very common. There's about 765,000 hits on Google right now. There's an entry for it at Dictionary.com https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/tfg/ It's one of the items on the disambiguation page for TFG It's definitely common enough to be included. Can we please add it.

"Genocide Joe" is absolutely not worth being here

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For a nickname to be here it has to be used by either large parts of the American population or important people (politicians, media people, etc). "Genocide Joe" has neither of this characteristics. It is only used by a couple hundred people on Twitter and Reddit. It is incorrect to believe this terminally-online term used only by a fringe group of left-wing extremists is important enough to be on this list. That's why it should be deleted. Guyermou (talk) 16:07, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Plenty of nicknames for Bush too and he is worthy of more ire than Biden yet I don’t see any nicknames here even mentioning his conduct in the Middle East. As much as I personally disagree with Biden’s policy on the Middle East, Genocide Joe isn’t suitable to be listed as a nickname here maybe if there’s a page listing derogatory slogans used at presidents sure but not here 99.232.236.142 (talk) 14:57, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, I have never heard "Amtrak Joe" in my life before, but I have heard critics of Biden's foreign policy call him "Genocide Joe" pretty often. Ad homenems aren't a measure of notability. Plenty of names on the list are derogatory too (look at John Adams for example). -1ctinus📝🗨 23:14, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Amtrak Joe" I've heard for at least a couple decades. I personally can sympathize with the term "Genocide Joe". But, it is not widely used and is recent. It does not belong. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know the best objective way to measure popularity of a term/nickname like this? it’s too recent for ngram (which has flaws), and google trends is only focused on google searches, so it may not be encompassing enough. -1ctinus📝🗨 01:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is an historical article listing nicknames that presidents are known for going back over two centuries. The nicknames should be in reliable sources for a substantial period of time indicating that they will pass the WP:20YT. We should not be adding what's been shouted in parts of social media for a few weeks as such isn't likely to stand the test of time. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The nickname has been very frequently used in reliable sources for months by now, and its last mention in the media was three days ago. This isn't a nickname that has been used by one singular occasion but is a frequent and well-known epithet towards Biden, and there's a voluminous amount of sources that indicate that this will remain relevant.
https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-mexican-restaurant-negative-reviews-1881426
HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 16:08, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NEWSWEEK: "Unlike articles before 2013, Newsweek articles since 2013 are not generally reliable." Yelp reviews are certainly not RS. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, then six days ago by the Washington Post. My point that it's a common nickname, Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball but saying it "isn't likely to stand the test of time" is simply trying to predict the future.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/03/18/biden-democrats-protesters-gaza/
18:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC) HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 18:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is a story about one, single person yelling at a rally quickly drowned out by the others present. Stop the presses. And it wasn't even a story. It was a short video that seems to have already been moved and generalized for Democrats as a group. As for WP:CRYSTAL, that's my point. We do not include things until they become notable -- not because we think they may. That is particularly true for this article that lists the nicknames that presidents have historically been most known for. Each of these presidents has likely had innumerable names fired at them when alive. We just include those that have lasted. I've removed over a dozen such names for Trump. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:37, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How exactly do you quantify a "notable" nickname, then? Is 10 reliable sources mentioning the nickname to some capacity not notable enough?
I find it fair to mass-remove Trump nicknames that have been used by like, one or two people on a single occasion, but plenty of sources give the name as having been shouted at Biden by dozens of people and activists, and over a wide period of time as well. Nobody is ever going to refer to Biden as "Genocide Joe" in a formal sense because that's not what nicknames are for, but there has been plenty of sources that prove its been widely used. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 21:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK you made me look at your sources in the article:
1. Some protesters
2. Some protester and unspecified social media
3. SKYNews AU is not considered reliable
4. Does not contain Genocide Joe
5. Fox News is not considered reliable for politics
6. Behind a paywall
7. Protester chants
None of this is like the nicknames in this article; which were heavily used by papers and opponents and most are now in history books. Not saying some protester said something, but using the nickname in their own voice. Most were positive and some lasted centuries. Again, this is a history article. This is NOT widely used and we can't include everything a few protesters shouted. Each president has a very small entry. There simply is no reason to assume this nickname shouted by some protesters will stand the test of time. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:21, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are a lot of sources dating back to late October that show that it is a nickname that has gained traction, whether by quoting protesters or repeating it in the titles. Some people with Wikipedia pages (Joseph Kishore, Bassem Yousef, and Philip Weiss) have used it. By typing "genocide joe" into Google, the first result I got was this page from www.whitehouse.gov; even the US Government has documented its usage. And there's more than that.
Here's just twenty-two of them
1. No consensus Roche, Rarragh (October 26, 2023). "Joe Biden Dismissing Gaza Death Toll Sparks Fury". Newsweek. X user Mohammed wrote on Wednesday: "with biden denying the palestinian death toll today, i hope anyone lecturing others about 'b-but trump!' understands that it means nothing to me. they are the same and you're too ashamed to admit it. genocide joe or trump being president has no distinct difference at this point."
2. Generally unreliable Walters, Jack (October 27, 2023). "Anti-Israeli protesters burn US flag as they accuse Biden of 'genocide'". GB News. Around 3,000 protesters gathered near Wall Street chanting "genocide Joe has got to go" and "Eric Adams, you can't hide, you support genocide".
3. Generally unreliable Halaby, Raouf (November 3, 2023). "Genocide Joe and Life Vs. Death". CounterPunch. And then, later that day, I get a video message from Khaled Turaani, a video in which he responded to Genocide Joe's social media statement to his 55 million followers. [...] My message to Geocide Joe, [sic]
4. No information Davis, Sybil (November 17, 2023). "Movement for Palestine Deepens "Genocide Joe's" Problems Ahead of the 2024 Elections". Left Voice. From college campuses to demonstrations by anti-Zionist Jews to a massive march on Washington, the largest U.S. social movement since Black Lives Matter in 2020 has erupted and Biden has been unable to contain it. To make matters even worse, this movement is highlighting his administration's role in the on-going genocide in Gaza. This movement has named Biden "Genocide Joe" and declared to him that "come November, we'll remember" his complicity in the crimes of Israel.
5. No consensus Weiss, Philip (November 29, 2023). "Biden became 'Genocide Joe' thanks to the Israel lobby". Mondoweiss. The good thing about today's crisis is that the lobby's influence is naked. "Sleepy Joe has a new nickname– Genocide Joe," cracked another friend at Thanksgiving.
6. Generally unreliable "Biden gets called 'Genocide Joe' by protesters". Fox News Los Angeles. December 8, 2023. Some of the protesters demanding ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war are calling President Joe Biden "Genocide Joe" for his handling of the ongoing Middle East crisis. This comes as Biden is in Southern California to attend this weekend's fundraiser events.
7. Generally reliable Dovere, Edward-Isaac (January 9, 2024). "Biden can't escape protests over his backing for Israel, even in church". CNN. On Friday near Valley Forge, Pennsylvania – as the president was inside giving a searing speech warning that American democracy might collapse if he doesn't beat Donald Trump – a group of pro-Palestinian protestors stood on a patch of grass outside ticking through rhyming chants like, "Hey hey, ho ho, genocide Joe has got to go!"
8. No consensus Cross, Jacob (January 9, 2024). "Ceasefire protesters interrupt Biden campaign speech at South Carolina church". World Socialist Web Site. A few hundred people had gathered inside the church to hear Biden speak. Anticipating that there would be protests against "Genocide Joe," as he is known to millions around the world for his unstinting support for Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign in Gaza, the church pastor had asked attendees not to interrupt Biden's speech. Police and security officers escorted the protesters out of the church without incident.
9. No information "No Genocide Joe for President: Healdsburg, CA". Code Pink. January 18, 2024. Join CODEPINK SF BAY AREA for an emergency action TODAY 1/18 at 3pm as Jill Biden is in town for an event at Puma Springs Vineyard! Bring posters and wear pink as we confront the first lady and tell her NO TAXES FOR GENOCIDE and NO GENOCIDE JOE for PRESIDENT.
10. Generally reliable Abdul-Hakim, Gabriella; Cathey, Libby; Farrow, Fritz (January 23, 2024). "Biden, at abortion rights campaign rally, repeatedly interrupted by pro-Palestinian protesters". ABC News. They disrupted his major 2024 event with chants of "Genocide Joe."
11. Generally reliable Bowden, John (January 28, 2024). "AOC and Pelosi clash over 'genocide Joe' label flung at Biden by Gaza protesters". The Independent. Kristin Welker, NBC's moderator, noted to Ms Ocasio-Cortez during their interview that some activists on her party's progressive left flank have started using the derisive moniker "Genocide Joe" for the US president. Welker then asked Ms Ocasio-Cortez if the descriptor of "genocide" went too far: "Some of your colleagues have accused the president of supporting genocide, including Rashida Tlaib. Do you agree with that word, 'genocide,' that the president's been supporting a genocide, or does that go too far?"
12. Generally reliable Tabet, Alex (February 14, 2024). "Biden's new TikTok account flooded with comments about Gaza". NBC News. Since then, pro-Palestinian demonstrators have confronted Biden at a campaign stop in Michigan, chanting "Genocide Joe." And protesters calling for a cease-fire in Gaza have waited outside Secretary of State Antony Blinken's home to have their gripes heard.
13. No consensus Obeidallah, Dean (February 15, 2024). "Bassem Youssef slams "Genocide Joe," says he lost "Superman" role after speaking out about Palestine". Salon. So honestly, I don't care about Joe Biden, and I call him "Joe Geriatric Genocide Biden." That is him, because he doesn't even have the honor to be Genocide Joe, because he's a geriatric, he's senile, he's old, and he doesn't know even what he's doing. He's the worst mockery of a genocide enabler in history. I mean, even other genocide people like Mussolini, whatever, they had charisma, but that guy has nothing. He says, "Who? Blah, blah. President of Mexico. Blah, blah."
14. No information Marks, Stephen (February 19, 2024). "It's Not Too Late for 'Genocide Joe'—But Time Is Running Out". Common Dreams. President Biden needs to take a hard look at himself and his administration and reclaim a moral position. There is time to change. If he does not, Genocide Joe will go down. And he will take us all with him.
15. No information Kukreti, Shweta (March 10, 2024). "Biden heckled by pro-Palestine supporter during Georgia campaign, 'You're a dictator too genocide Joe'". Hindustan Times. Calling out Biden for the United States' continuous support to Israel amid the war and rising death toll in Gaza, a pro-Palestine protestor yelled at the US President and dubbed him "genocide Joe". In a video shared on X (formerly Twitter), a protestor can be heard yelling, "You're a dictator, Genocide Joe." "Tens of thousands of Palestinians are dead. Children are dying."
16. No consensus Crosse, Jacob (March 10, 2024). "Bernie Sanders reaffirms support for "Genocide Joe" after Biden declares "no red lines" in Israeli assault on Gaza". World Socialist Web Site. Joseph Kishore, the Socialist Equality Party candidate for president issued a statement on X/Twitter responding to Sanders' statement. Sanders doubles down on support for #GenocideJoe Senator Bernie Sanders was featured on "Face the Nation" this morning to redouble his support for Biden, amidst the escalating genocide in Gaza and the expanding US-NATO war against Russia over Ukraine. Shedding crocodile tears,… Show more
17. Generally reliable "Protester shouts 'Genocide Joe' at Biden campaign event". The Washington Post. March 13, 2024. President Biden was interrupted by a protester shouting "genocide Joe" and "Free Palestine" while speaking in Atlanta on March 9.
18. No consensus Plummer, Kate (March 15, 2024). "Joe Biden Faces Irish Anger on St. Patrick's Day". Newsweek. Biden's approach has caused backlash both in the U.S. and abroad. Some pro-Palestinian demonstrators in the U.S. have called the Democrat "Genocide Joe," and 13 percent of voters declared themselves "uncommitted" in the Michigan Democratic presidential primary last month in protest of the White House's backing of Israel.
19. Goodwin, Emily (March 21, 2024). "Anti-Israel protesters with 'Genocide Joe' banners swarm Biden's Dallas hotel and his fundraiser in Houston in fury over his Gaza policy as thousands threaten to withhold vote". Daily Mail. Pro-Palestinian supporters have been trailing the president since the war in the Middle East began after Hamas' October 6th attack on Israel. They have been referring to the president as 'Genocide Joe.'
20. Generally unreliable Glebova, Diana (March 21, 2024). "Anti-Israel protesters swarm Biden's hotel over his Gaza policy, threaten to withhold votes". New York Post. Biden, 81, has been bombarded with anti-Israel protests for months, with signs sometimes bearing the phrase "Genocide Joe."
21. No information Palestine Chronicle Staff (March 30, 2024). "'Genocide Joe Has Got to Go!' – Demonstrators Disrupt Biden Fundraiser (VIDEO)". Palestine Chronicle. Outside the venue, hundreds of protesters waving Palestinian flags gathered, yelling "Shut it Down!" while also chanting slogans such as "Genocide Joe has got to go!" and "Free, Free Palestine!" Biden was denounced as a "war criminal."
22. No information Rothman, Victor (April 4, 2024). "Which name? Genocide Joe or President Joe Biden". City Watch LA. Six months into Israel's attack on Gaza, has Joe Biden finally shed his nickname of Genocide Joe, often shouted at him by protesters at presidential campaign events?
I certainly believe that "Genocide Joe" qualifies for this list. Pinoccappuccino (talk) 21:41, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I started looking and saw there were terrible sources included. I'm not going to do your work for you and examine them all. We use reliable sources. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've gone back and denoted the sources' reliability per Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources (I'm not removing the "terrible sources" for transparency of what my first response originally said). To show good faith, I'll provide a few more sources that are exclusively listed as generally reliable.
Here's Generally reliable fifteen more
1. Generally reliable Terry, Eva (November 7, 2023). "Weekend march in D.C. by pro-Palestinian groups demand cease-fire in Gaza, calling President Biden 'Genocide Joe'". Deseret News (via Yahoo! News). Answer Coalition Executive Director Brian Becker said at the rally, "We make the change, the change comes from us, and right now sisters and brothers — we are sending a message, a very strong message to Joe Biden: If you stand with genocide, we hold you guilty of genocide."
2. Generally reliable Oreskes, Benjamin (November 18, 2023). "California Democratic Party convention locked down amid anti-Israel protests". Los Angeles Times. Protesters in Sacramento called President Biden "Genocide Joe," and said, "bombing hospitals and children is a crime."
3. Generally reliable "White House Asked Point Blank About Pro-Ceasefire Protesters Calling Biden 'Genocide Joe'". Forbes. November 20, 2023. Adm. John Kirby reacts to pro-ceasefire protesters calling President Biden "Genocide Joe."
4. Generally reliable Tait, Robert (December 4, 2023). "How the White House's John Kirby is taking on the word 'genocide'". The Guardian. Challenged at a White House briefing to confront the term "Genocide Joe" by some protesters to described Biden, Kirby, who had previously ruled out "drawing red lines" for Israel's actions in Gaza, embarked on an animated exposition. "People can say what they want on the sidewalk and we respect that. That's what the first amendment's about," he said. "But this word genocide's getting thrown around in a pretty inappropriate way by lots of different folks. What Hamas wants, make no mistake about it, is genocide. They want to wipe Israel off the map."
5. Generally reliable Gangitano, Alex (December 12, 2023). "From White House to West Coast, cease-fire protests follow Biden across US". The Hill (via Yahoo! News). Chants of "genocide Joe" and "cease-fire now" have followed President Biden at stops across the U.S. in recent weeks as protesters demanding a cease-fire in the Israel-Hamas war attempt to bring their message directly to the chief executive at home.
6. Generally reliable Mack, Eitay (December 22, 2024). "The Biden Administration's Delay of Gun Shipments to Israel Police Is Simply Too Little". The Wire (India). One can imagine a conversation between President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu.
President Biden: Bibi, the progressives call me "genocide Joe", I have to look tough with you.
Netanyahu: Don't worry, cut the guns to Ben Gvir but continue with the deliveries of bombs for Gaza.
7. Generally reliable Borosage, Robert L. (January 4, 2024). "The Empire Strikes Back". The Nation. A projected picture of President Joe Biden with the text reading "Genocide Joe" on the wall of the African American Civil War Memorial Museum during in a Pro-Palestinian demonstration in Washington, D.C. Pro-Palestinian demonstrators gathered at Thomas Circle to hold a rally with Palestinian flags and banners, calling for a cease-fire in Gaza.
8. Generally reliable Dorn, Sara (January 23, 2024). "Protesters Interrupt Biden's Abortion Rights Speech More Than A Dozen Times". Forbes. Moments after Biden began his speech in Virginia, a protester shouted "Genocide Joe!", followed by a series of other protesters who interrupted the 20-minute speech.
9. Generally reliable Pilkington, Ed (January 31, 2024). "Pro-Palestinian protesters at Biden events cast shadow on his re-election effort". The Guardian. The sense that such agitation is fast becoming the new normal was confirmed by Medea Benjamin, co-founder of the feminist peace group Code Pink and one of the protesters outside the Virginia rally. "We expect there to be protests at every major event that Biden does, and even minor ones," she said. "People are so angry they're looking to vent their frustration and disgust at the man we now call Genocide Joe and anybody working for this complicit administration."
10. Generally reliable Inskeep, Steve (February 3, 2024). "Six takeaways from Biden's recent campaign speeches". NPR (KQED-FM). In the four speeches we analyzed, Biden never mentioned his support for Israel in its war against Hamas, though protesters did. They repeatedly interrupted his speeches, shouting "Genocide Joe."
11. Generally reliable Natour, Rhana (February 23, 2024). "'The media and politicians are failing': comedian Bassem Youssef on Piers Morgan, satire and 'Genocide Joe'". The Guardian. In the show, Youssef frequently refers to Joe Biden as "Genocide Joe" – but he never directly mentions the Israel-Gaza war, which birthed the nickname. He tells me that this is a deliberate choice.
12. Generally reliable Alter, Charlotte; Bennett, Brian; Elliott, Philip (March 21, 2024). "Biden's Campaign Is In Trouble. Will the Turnaround Plan Work?". TIME. When he finally did, the scene greeting him outside was a reminder of the challenge ahead. On the street in front of the school, dozens of pro-Palestinian protesters, holding signs reading Cease-Fire Now, erupted in chants of "Genocide Joe." The protesters had camped there for hours as the sun set, waiting for their chance to get Biden's attention. As his limousine pulled away, the crowd increased the volume of their chants, hoping the President would hear them from inside his armored car. —With reporting by Leslie Dickstein, Simmone Shah, and Julia Zorthian
13. Generally reliable Shalal, Andrea (March 26, 2024). "More handshakes, fewer rallies as Biden 2024 campaign takes shape". Reuters. In November a rabbi interrupted Biden at a fundraiser in Minnesota, urging him to call for a "ceasefire right now." In January, a Biden event in Virginia was repeatedly interrupted by shouts of "Ceasefire now" and "Genocide Joe."
14. Generally reliable Diver, Tony; Smith, Benedict; Zagon, Chanel (March 29, 2024). "Pro-Palestine protesters disrupt Biden's star-studded 'historic' fundraiser". The Daily Telegraph. Hundreds of pro-Palestine activists gathered outside as the event got under way, where they called the US president a "war criminal" and labelled him "Genocide Joe".
15. Generally reliable Garrison, Joey; Venugopal-Ramaswamy, Swapna (March 29, 2024). "Gaza protesters dim the glitz and glamour of Biden's Obama-Clinton fundraiser in NYC". USA Today. Groups of protesters frequently shadow the president outside events, holding signs that read "Genocide Joe." The scene Thursday, though, was perhaps the most audacious demonstration yet.
Pinoccappuccino (talk) 23:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The first ref is a religious paper quoting the New York Post, considered unreliable for politics WP:NYPOST. Please read WP:RS and please stop posting Google results as they are useless in an encyclopedia and no one is going to read them. Obviously shouting is going to be included in newspapers and such. Please keep in mind this is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and this specific article is about history going back well over two centuries. If you want something included, you must follow our policies and guidelines. WP:RS WP:RECENTISM WP:10YT WP:NOTNEWS WP:BLP O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:19, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, RS guidelines are generalizations about statements of fact. I'd suggest Fox, despite being considered nonreliable for general facts, can be relied on specifically as to what certain right-wing people think as it is anyway POV for their views. But this is just a side note. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Amtrak Joe" is very well documented (albeit it peaked before many editors were born) while the only reason "Genocide Joe" is even under discussion here is that it represents the views of the far left and not the far right. It also hasn't been demonstrated to be in sustained usage and to predict otherwise breaches WP:CRYSTAL. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:15, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no consensus for inclusion and yet it continues to be forced into the article. This is not how Wikipedia operates. O3000, Ret. (talk) 10:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now that Donald Trump has officially endorsed the term I think it’s fair to consider it notable enough for inclusion.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/14/genocide-israel-gaza-iran-trump-biden/ 92.11.168.9 (talk) 16:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many of the comments in this section and the section below say it is being used by a "fringe group" of "far-left protestors." Fine, then here's a story from a reputable publication specifically focused on 1. this being a nickname and 2. it being used across partisan lines:
Trump supporters echo pro-Palestinian ‘genocide Joe’ chant
Another previous poster who is diligently reverting edits including "Genocide Joe" in the article mentions: "There is no consensus for inclusion and yet it continues to be forced into the article."
so... people are independently coming to this page and expecting to see it in the nickname category? and adding it in because it seems relevant to the page? As in... it's a commonly known nickname?
The majority of people on this page agree that this nickname should be included, and the list of sources Pinoccappuccino already provided ample evidence that this nickname was on a scale worth mentioning. for people considered about it being "political," why not just attribute it to the political group using the nickname? How is it not a nickname just because people who represent your viewpoint aren't the ones using it?
Seems like a couple of ardent page watchdogs are forcefully reverting edits under the guise of "wikipedia rules" when they don't seem to have well founded reasons to exclude the nickname, and when the majority seems to agree it's reached the level to merit inclusion Jatwa (talk) 01:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Should the nickname Genocide Joe be in this article?

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Should the nickname "Genocide Joe" be included on a list of nicknames used for Presidents of the United States? 14:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC) HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 14:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • '''No''' This may be reviewed later as the name may stick and come into popular use but right now it can't be said that this is a widely used nickname. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 16:20, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Dozens of sources have described it as a widely used nickname. KlayCax (talk) 16:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No Definitely not, since this is not endorsed by the relevant guidelines (see my comments above and in response to other threads I encountered while scrolling down here). Furthermore, as a militantly non-partisan voter fed up with the circus that is my country's politics, I find it really concerning to be summoned here on WP by Yapperbot to a discussion about amplifying far-left name-calling when it's settled that we don't amplify far-right name-calling. It speaks volumes about the state of the editing in this topic area. Until next time, RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It’s come to my attention that I didn’t read the article before assuming its current content. However, I still don’t believe it merits inclusion. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 06:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I’m going to respectfully disagree with the “No” side, but it appears to me that they are shifting the goalposts to a nickname I have heard in common use, and are against it primarily due to ulterior motives of not liking ad hominems. -1ctinus📝🗨 22:08, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all. "Brandon" is in the article, which stands for "fuck Joe Biden". I think that's an ad hominem. That had much wider use than some protestors. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:15, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment only if multiple reliable sources say/imply it is a common nickname. It can't just be from protestors but from the general public
Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. (Summoned by feedback request service). Inappropriate recentism. No evidence of broad usage outside of small protest groups. We’re not here to amplify fringe opinions. Revisit in a year and see if sources still use this. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 14:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would say 6 months to see whether how it’s included in election recaps Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:34, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No Frankly, I would rather we not have nicknames for the current or previous president. We know the nicknames of George Washington that have survived the test of time. They are in history books. With recent presidents we are mostly guessing at what will be in future history books. An encyclopedia shouldn’t try to predict the future. If we are going to add nicknames for current and recent, we must take care to limit the names to those that will obviously last. This one is recent and not obvious at this point. Reliable sources are not using it in their own voice. Late night hosts aren’t using it in jokes. People aren’t chanting it in the stands at race tracks. The following policies and guidelines apply: WP:CRYSTALBALL WP:RS WP:RECENTISM WP:10YT WP:NOTNEWS WP:BLP WP:NODEADLINE O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Then we should remove all present nicknames for Joe Biden. For now, it merits inclusion. KlayCax (talk) 16:00, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There are editors, not just here but in general across topic areas, who would be fine with that and really with limiting coverage of the previous couple of years until time passes. I am still not totally sure whether I count myself among them. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 08:56, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging previous editors on this subject.
@1ctinus @Objective3000 @Pinoccappuccino @Guyermou
Here's a list of sources that the article currently uses:
Source List

HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 14:37, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Malformed RfC. You have mistitled the RfC as RS is just one part of the answer. We know RS have stated that the term has been used by some protestors. It doesn't matter if 100 sources repeat this. The question is whether it fits the statement at the top of the article: This list is intended to note those nicknames that were in common use at the time they were in office or shortly thereafter. Does common use mean just some protestors? If so, this would be a very long article as some protestors have used large numbers of names for each president, which have not stood the test of time. Where have reliable sources used this in their own voice or indicated that it is in common use among the populace? I've removed well over a dozen insulting nicknames used for Trump because they are documented in RS, but not in common use and will be forgotten. The same should be true for Biden or any other president. Keep in mind that this is an historical article going back nearly three centuries. It should not include every name shouted in anger. This is an encyclopedia. Patience, there is WP:NODEADLINE. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:07, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Alright, I retitled the RfC. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 15:12, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. The term is in common use and has already been acknowledged by Biden and Trump. It's already far more notable than "Dark Brandon" (which absolutely nobody uses outside social media) 5.151.181.34 (talk) 16:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well said! RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 02:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No for now It might be too soon to include it per the criterion that the nicknames be "in common use at the time they were in office or shortly thereafter." Most of the sources presented above are from early 2024, so I don't believe the nickname has achieved widespread, common usage just yet. The exclusion can be revisited later if Biden gets re-elected and people are still calling him "Genocide Joe" during his second term. Some1 (talk) 23:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Uncommon nicknames

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@GobsPint: added five Trump nicknames that are not in common use, required by the article lead. I removed and they re-added. There are a vast number of uncommon nicknames, mostly derogatory like these. Derogatory nicknames are allowed -- only if they were in common use. I suggest a self-revert. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:19, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Objective3000: Citing the article lead as the source for removal is self-referential. The lead is not a policy. Please define "common use" and what constitutes "at the time they were in office or shortly thereafter." The additional nicknames are sourced with WP:RS, and have been used since their introduction during the trial. Trump is less than one term out-of-office...does that satisfy the leads "shortly thereafter"?GobsPint (talk) 17:16, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The description in the lead is what this list is about. There are a million names thrown at presidents during their elections and terms. That's natural in politics. This is a historical article. It is about nicknames throughout two centuries of presidents. Other people have to be using the name over a period of time such that it endures (or will endure) in history books. Such that it become common usage. There is no reason to believe that one insult uttered by one person or media outlet will stand the test of time. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What time frame is sufficient to determine common usage? Why can't additional, notable sourced nicknames be listed? GobsPint (talk) 12:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If they are not in common usage now, they aren't in common usage, which is the subject of this list. Common usage means lots of people are using it, not lots of sources reported that someone used it. How does Donald Von ShitzInPantz compare with George Washington called the father of our country? O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where would you place nicknames of presidents that meet WP:RS if not here? What constitutes common usage if not multiple sources repeating the same nickname?GobsPint (talk) 05:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How are they repeating it? Are they repeating the same story? That's one usage, not common usage. We can't include everything that every president has been called. What historical value would that have? O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:RS, we report the facts. Excluding sourced nicknames, gives WP:UNDUE to the existing nicknames. There is value in a more inclusive, nuanced timeline of nicknames. GobsPint (talk) 06:42, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We report DUE facts. We do not report the thousand names these folks have been once called by some person in anger. Few people have heard "orange turd" now, very few, if any, notable new uses will likely exist, and basically no one is likely to remember it in a few years. WP:10YT As for RS, of course the news sources jumped on it. But we are WP:NOTNEWS. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:05, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When someone references an Orange Turd, ShitzInPantz a decade from now, they should be able to locate its meaning. There will voluminous literature about the Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York. What constitutes a "notable new use" for a nickname?GobsPint (talk) 17:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like there is a consensus to remove the names During the Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York, Trump was given the following names:

  • Orange Turd, given by Stormy Daniels and entered into the federal record.[1][2][3][4]
  • Donald Von ShitzInPantz, given by Trump's former personal attorney, Michael Cohen, and entered into the federal record.[5][6][7][8][9][1]
  • Don Snoreleone, Donnie Nappleseed, and Sleepy Don, given by the media after Trump assumed a demeanor resembling sleep.[10]

GobsPint (talk) 19:57, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Donald Trump referred to as "Comrade Nation Builder" on state-sanctioned Chinese social media

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Donald Trump is referred to as "Comrade Nation Builder" on state-sanctioned Chinese social media. Per the above sources, this is an ongoing reference since his first presidency. GobsPint (talk) 19:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure he's called all manner of things on Chinese social media. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:14, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your remark, while true, doesn't address why multiple WP:RS over several years do not justify the addition. Per your previous comments "I would rather we not have nicknames for the current or previous president." it seems that additions are impermissible at this time. GobsPint (talk) 13:56, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, RS does not mean DUE. The additions you are making are not DUE. Now, the Comrade Nation Builder stuff may be DUE on a Trump article. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the Runet also has their own nicknames for people. I think an English-language focus for this specific article is justified. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 05:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  1. ^ a b "Musings for Friday - Von Shitzinpants and Orange Turd. Are TFG's Lawyers Insulting Him to His Face?". Daily Kos. Retrieved 30 May 2024.
  2. ^ Kukreti, Shweta (May 10, 2024). "Who is 'Orange Turd' and why Donald Trump's lawyers showed Stormy Daniels' tweet to jurors?". Hindustan Times. Retrieved 30 May 2024.
  3. ^ Meyers, Seth (May 9, 2024). "Stormy Calls Trump an "Orange Turd" in Wild Testimony; Greene Booed by Republicans: A Closer Look". Late Night with Seth Meyers. Retrieved 30 May 2024.
  4. ^ Harvey, Josephine (10 May 2024). "Lawrence O'Donnell Roasts Trump Attorney For Bringing 'The Orange Turd Into The Courtroom'". HuffPost. Retrieved 30 May 2024.
  5. ^ Musumeci, Natalie; Italiano, Laura; Shamsian, Jacob (May 2, 2024). "Donald 'Von ShitzInPantz' has now formally been entered into the public record at Trump's hush-money trial". Business Insider. Retrieved 26 May 2024.
  6. ^ "As the trial begins, Donald von ShitzInPantz better stock up on Imodium and Gas-X + A Conversation with Tony Schwartz". Mea Culpa Podcast. MidasTouch Network. Apr 22, 2024. Retrieved 30 May 2024.
  7. ^ Ali, Shirin (2 May 2024). "The Degradation of Donald Trump Attorney Todd Blanche Is Already Complete". Slate. Retrieved 30 May 2024.
  8. ^ Rohrlich, Justin (2 May 2024). "Donald 'Von ShitzInPantz' Diss Makes Hush-Money Trial Debut". The Daily Beast. Retrieved 30 May 2024.
  9. ^ "Trump Supporters Wear 'MAGA Diapers' At Rallies: A Take On 'Von ShitzInPantz' ?". Times Now. 3 May 2024. Retrieved 30 May 2024.
  10. ^ Parker, Ashley (12 May 2024). "Narrative of Trump snoozing in court takes hold — much to his annoyance". Washington Post. Retrieved 28 May 2024.
  11. ^ WERTIME, DAVID (June 4, 2020). "'American Carnage' Now Playing in China". Politico. Retrieved 8 June 2024.
  12. ^ Kelter, Frederik (Aug 25, 2023). "'Comrade Nation Builder': How China views Donald Trump's indictments in US". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 8 June 2024.
  13. ^ Loh, Matthew (Mar 31, 2023). "People on Chinese social media say Trump's indictment embarrassed the US and made China look so good, he should just join the Chinese Communist Party". Business Insider. Retrieved 8 June 2024.
  14. ^ Gan, Nectar (31 May 2024). "Trump is trending on Chinese social media, and many are rejoicing". CNN. Retrieved 8 June 2024.
  15. ^ "Trump's conviction sparks interest, schadenfreude in China". Asian News International. June 1, 2024. Retrieved 8 June 2024.
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