Talk:Mohammed Deif

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Q1: Why is Mohammed Deif shown as alive

A1: per WP:BDP, "anyone born within the past 115 years is [considered alive] unless a reliable source has confirmed their death". Since Hamas has denied Deif's death, the presumption is that he is alive unless and until the IDF declassifies its evidence that Deif is dead.

Q2: Does this mean that Hamas's version is given more weight that the israeli version?

A2: It means that preference is given to whomever has the version that Mohammed Deif is alive. That's why it's up to the party who claims that he is dead to provide the evidence that he is dead, rather than the party who claims that he is alive to provide evidence that he is alive.

Q3: What would happen if Hamas were to announce his death but were to provide a different date, location, and cause for his death

A3: Unless one side provides stronger evidence than the other side, under such a scenario it would be proper to list both dates, locations, and causes with parenthesis whose date, location, and cause is associated with which version

Q4: What could happen in 2080 (115 years after Deif's birth) under the scenario of no new information is made available (i.e. Deif's death is still denied from the Palestinian side, and Israel is still not declassifying evidence of his death)?

A4: At that point, it would be permissible to enter the Israeli version of the time, place, and cause of his death with the parenthetical statement that the information is disputed.

Q5: How do Wikipedias in other languages handle this issue?

A5: Each Wikipedia is run differently with different rules, meaning that the consensus reached in other Wikipedias could be different. Not all Wikipedias have policies regarding biographies of living people, and even those who have such a policy, few have a clause within their policy page on how to handle death announcements.
Since the English Wikipedia has been hit with an unfortunate incident regarding the biography of a living person as far back as 2005, it has developed the most rigorous policies regarding biographies of living people.

Mohammed Deif was nominated as a Social sciences and society good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (April 10, 2024, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Survived 5 other attacks?

If this is true and not hearsay, a reference should be included.

Osama hamdan “confirmed”

He didn’t confirm anything, he is lying saying Deif is alive even though he is dead. Hamas has died Marwan issa’s death as well even though he is dead and America and Israel have confirmed it so change this Kwabat5 (talk) 00:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mohammed deif’s death is disputed, and it’s best we wait until the war ends and see if it is true. As for Marwan Issa, they have not denied his assassination so there is no dispute or challenge to the Israeli claim The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 10:07, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hamas have confirmed only about a dozens deaths of militants and leaders in the whole war, In Gaza it's just Haniyeh's sons and police? Deif is the only one they only they have directly claimed is alive? FourPi (talk) 01:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But I do think we should say clearly that it is disputed, in the info box and maybe the last line of the intro (too much to explain in the first line), and that there was an attempt last month, including a short realistic description of the event. Not a long one, we can link the page, and say "see below", but date + 90 killed + IDF and Hamas disagree about whether one of killed was Deif. Without that, people do trust wiki less, and also end up believing it was genuinely a "targeted strike" with "surgical" precision, as the IDF claim. FourPi (talk) 01:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Hamas’ claims of him being alive given more weight than the IDF’s assertions he’s dead?

Hamas is a terrorist group that has nothing to gain by confirming his death. It will only hurt their morale. On the other hand, the IDF’s intelligence confirming Deif was eliminated in the strike seems pretty well supported. For what it’s worth, Hamas hasn’t confirmed Marwan Issa’s death either but that’s still confirmed according to Wikipedia. So why the double standard for Deif? 2401:D002:8705:D400:E947:7A4C:5443:534D (talk) 11:41, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because it's Wikipedia. It's not supposed to make sense. 2600:1700:E255:10:5C12:F40:3B57:33BD (talk) 21:42, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So true. 2603:9008:2101:E2F3:425:A6EF:6530:D9C3 (talk) 04:04, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When the idf can show us his body, and his exact picture at the moment they dropped a one-tonne bomb in an area where civilians were sheltering in tents then we can talk The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 12:25, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

His body was blown to smithereens, so it won't be showed. It would be much easier for Hamas to diffuse an audio or video proving he is alive, no? --160.78.149.35 (talk) 15:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israel is the accuser. The burden of proof is on them. Their silly infographics won’t work and have numerous times proven to be false The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As always, history repeats itself! The article mentions how Israel claimed Deif was assasinated in 2014, which was disproven in 2015... I just think it will take time for Deif to be confirmed alive Deus vult fratres! (talk) 22:22, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently states:

In August 2014, during the 2014 Gaza War, the Israeli air force attempted to assassinate him with an airstrike on the Deif family home in Sheikh Radwan in Gaza City. Hamas denied that Deif was killed, and his survival was confirmed by Israeli intelligence in 2015.

If Israel falsely claimed that Deif was assassinated, that should definitely be explicitly stated Jesse Flynn (pseudonym) (talk) 02:06, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weird, I think I didn't read this on Wikipedia ... or that the article was edited Deus vult fratres! (talk) 18:01, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I love how you felt the need to bring up the civilians as though it's relevant to this too, lmao. Yeah you're not biased at all, Mule 2603:9008:2101:E2F3:425:A6EF:6530:D9C3 (talk) 16:34, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe because the people bombed were civilians? I don’t know, maybe where you’re at you’re taught Palestinians are animals that can be slaughtered in any number and not actual human beings. My bias (more like common sense really) doesn’t matter here The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Riiiiiight. Well, I won't say more since apparently your outrageous bias and false accusations are allowed here but responses to it get deleted, so I'll just wish you luck with that BS, Mule. 2603:9008:2101:E2F3:425:A6EF:6530:D9C3 (talk) 01:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed it by writing into the infobox details about his death with the parenthetical statement that it's disputed by Hamas. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 18:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW Al-Arabiya has for a couple weeks had a report citing a "Hamas source" as having confirmed Deif's death. This would support your approach. PrimaPrime (talk) 16:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This sequence of edits (along with the edit summary) seems to establish a new standard that unless Hamas officially confirms the death of its leaders, Wikipedia will not use other references that do confirm a death. I would think that would be a gross violation of WP:NPOV? The Mountain of Eden (talk) 01:49, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a participant in that sequence, however for example leaders which Hamas did not confirm the assassination of are still listed as killed (most notably Marwan Issa, Hamas did not confirm his death).

the reason Mohammad deif’s “assassination” is so controversial is that there are two parties involved already clashing with each other on wether he was killed, the lack of conclusive evidence of this supposed assassination and most controversially the manner of this “assassination” where 90 civilians were killed because Israel dropped several 1-tonne bombs (gladly supplied by America) over areas where civilians were sheltering The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 11:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per edit summary in this edit, Deif will continue to be shown on Wikipedia as alive until 2080, unless Hamas confirms his death before that.
But it may be possible that we could shave 6 years off of that, allowing Wikipedia to show Deif as dead as soon as 2074. The IDF obviously has evidence that Deif is dead, otherwise they wouldn't confirm his death — they would continue to put him on their most wanted list. As far as I understand, all military secrets in Israel are declassified after 50 years, so the evidence may be declassified in 2074 (but there may be a mechanism to extend the classifications of certain classified material by another 25 years, I'm not really sure).

Until then, let Deif live his life on Wikipedia. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 23:11, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When the sole party alleging to have “assassinated” him has a track record of lying when they Bomb civilians and claim to target individual militants, then the thing someone with common sense would do is to treat their allegations as nothing more than allegations The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:12, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at the FAQ for a more detailed analysis. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:28, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Change it back to was

change it to was and include a death sub section you can add a marker that it is disputed by hamas but Osama hamdan lies all the time Kwabat5 (talk) 02:51, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sub section is in the assassination attempts area The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 03:48, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ok but in the first sentence why is it "is" not was or even "was or is" why is everything hamas says, the lying terrorist organization true but israel is false? Kwabat5 (talk) 23:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Refer to the previous topic, to see why this dispute surrounds him and not other leaders assassinated such as Marwan Issa and Ismael haniye The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 11:36, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Description of Mohammed Deif

In the first paragraph of the main article Mohammed Deif is described as a "militant". This is BBC language. He is/was a terrorist and should be described as such. His al-Qassam Brigades were nothing other than a terrorist group. Dori1951 (talk) 13:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done, see MOS:TERRORIST. - Ïvana (talk) 19:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can also take a look at One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:23, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]