Talk:Ethnic groups in Chinese history

H'mong

I've heard the H'mong were expelled out of China, as how they ended up in Laos, anyone know anything about this? --alan D

During the twilight years of the Qing (Manchu)Empire, numerous Miao (Hmong)rebellions occurred in southwestern China (Guizhou, Yunnan), as did Hui (Muslim Chinese rebellions)in northwestern China (Gansu, Ningxia, Shaanxi). These rebellions were put down by the imperial army, prompting an exodus of defeated rebellion leaders and their followers out of China. The Hmong fled to Laos, Vietnam, and northern Thailand. Many Hui fled to Central Asia, where they became known as Dungans.--schtickyrice

Do you or anyone know the Chinese characters or romanization of "H'mong". The pronounciation doesn't sound familiar to me. Or would it be Wo? --- Ktsquare

I believe the Chinese name is Miao (苗?). Hmong is a romanization of the native name (also romanized Hmoob, where -oo sounds like -ong and -b represents the tone). I'm not an expert though... --Brion VIBBER

Thanx very much. I may draw a connection of the Liaotians and Miao minorities in southern provinces of China. I have read such a connection before in some books but can't recall which. I'm not an expert anyway but I'll try to account them on the page. Hopefully some experts will come across and correct it. Ktsquare

How will the Miao minorities be dealt with then? They are a recognized minority in China today Danny

This should start you off: Google search for "hmong" and "miao" --Brion VIBBER

Actually, I was asking in terms of nomenclature. Are they a separate group? It cannot be Miao (old Chinese ethnic group) and Miao (new Chinese ethnic group). Suggestions? Danny

I am writing a page with wikified paragraphs here. Ktsquare

Page move

Page moved from Tribes in Chinese history b/c the current title sounds more NPOVed Ktsquare

would nationalities be too POV? JinFX 03:27, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The page was at one stage called 'Ethnic groups in Chinese history'. It has since been moved to 'List of past Chinese ethnic groups'. This seems quite problematic to me. Were the Xiongnu, for instance, a Chinese ethnic group? True, at one stage they did pay tribute to the Chinese throne, but that hardly makes them 'Chinese'. The common thread amongst all these peoples is that they have had relations (often close relations) with the Chinese state and much of what we know about them is only available in Chinese sources.

Classifying them as 'Chinese ethnic groups' is uncomfortably close to the modern ideology of 'Zhonghua Minzu' (中华民族), which is itself a POV notion. Projecting the Zhonghua minzu concept back several thousand years seems a bit of a stretch.

As to whether to call these people 'tribes', 'nationalities', 'ethnic groups', or whatever, this question also carries traces of a traditional Chinese concept of history, namely the concept that these peoples were backward or inferior in terms of culture and political organisation and therefore inherently occupied a lower level than the Chinese state. This assignment of inferior status was politically and culturally motivated and needs to be questioned. (Even now it is a widely held attitude among the Han Chinese, e.g., common views of 'minority ethnic groups', or the concept that China has never 'invaded' other countries, it has merely expanded and absorbed surrounding groups that were not organised enough to be called 'nations'.)

Given the above, I would like to propose that this page should revert to 'Ethnic groups in Chinese history'.

Bathrobe 3 August 2005

Bathrobe's rationale sounds reasonable, reverted. I.H.S.V. (talk) 21:27, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Two small changes

I changed the item "Modern descendant(s)" to "Descendants" because the Jurchen are not "modern" descendants of the Mohe. Also, I changed "Korean" back to "Bohai" because most part of Gaogouli was annexed by Bohai.

Koreans believe the Gaogouli were Koreans and the Mohe were "barbaric" non-Koreans, and try to discriminate the Gaogouli from the Mohe among the Bohai people. They assert groundlessly that the former was the ruling class and the latter was the subordinate class. But we cannot find such a distinction in historical sources. --Nanshu 02:09, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Nanshu, for Bohai ppl, nobody says barbaric for Mohe nowadays. Scholars who had lived hundreds yrs ago used to say that, but not now. They had just different ways of lives. Goguryeo(Gaogouli) ppl were agricultural and their social system was based on confucianism. Mohe tribes was under the rule of Goguryeo but they had maintained their way of life, which is closer to nomadic. After the invasion of Tang and Silla, most of the remainders of Goguryeo became Bohai ppl. Then who knows how to build a new country and how to set up social system? Goguryeo ppl. Not Mohe tribes. I'm not sure of the ethnicity of the founder of Bohai because it's still under debate among historians. But Goguryeo ppl probably did the main role in the foundation of Bohai. So you can't say it's groundless. There is no direct proof for this, but there are many indirect ones. For example, a diplomatic document between Bohai and Japan shows the names of envoys, and most of their surnames were originally Goguryeo ppl's. --mmaclery@hotmail.com

Like it or not, Goguryeo surnames are of Chinese origin. How can one differentiate ethnicity based on this alone? --schtickyrice

Well, someone removed the section. [1].

Additions

Can we add to this table the names of any ancient nation/people/ethicity which was documented in chinese chronicles? I was thinking about the 滑.Zestauferov 02:58, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Malgal

I added Malgal as the "world history" name for Mohe, since I know it has been used as the preferred form to refer to the group. The form is closer to the reconstructed pronunciation of the characters for Mohe.

Xi

We need a Wikipedia article on the Xi people. Badagnani 03:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Southern people missing ?

Hello, I'm working on Image:China, 742.svg, and my source (the Cambridge History of China), put the following people or states Balhae, Bohai, Khitans, Xi, Tujue, Tubo, Nanzhao. In bold are the missing entities. Are they peoples or Kingdom ?

An other remark is that -out of Miao people- they are no people from south. Yug (talk) 04:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Han

Should there be a listing for Han people as an ethnic group? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.173.82.81 (talk) 20:47, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

One would think that a case could be easily made for this to be the most important ethnic group in Chinese history. Dcattell (talk) 23:06, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

STOP TO PANTURKIST PROPAGANDA!

Avar (Encyclopædia Britannica Article)

one of a people of undetermined origin and language, who, playing an important role in eastern Europe (6th–9th century), built an empire in the area between the Adriatic and the Baltic Sea and between the Elbe and Dnieper rivers (6th–8th century). Inhabiting an area in the Caucasus region in 558, they intervened in Germanic tribal wars, allied with the Lombards to overthrow the Gepidae (allies of Byzantium), and between 550 and 575 established themselves in the Hungarian plain between the Danube and Tisza rivers. This area became the centre of their empire, which reached its peak at the end of the 6th century. The Avars engaged in wars against Byzantium, almost occupying Constantinople in 626, and against the Merovingians; they also were partly responsible for the southward migration of the Serbs and the Croats. In the second half of the 7th century, internal discord resulted in the expulsion of about 9,000 dissidents from the Avar empire. The state, further weakened by a revolt precipitated by the creation of the Bulgarian state in the Balkans (680), survived until 805 when it submitted to Charlemagne.

"Avar." Encyclopædia Britannica from Encyclopædia Britannica 2007 Ultimate Reference Suite . (2008).

Your "ozturkler. com" is panturkistic (nationalist, chauvinistic) resource. Whence it is taken, what Yuechih were Uigurs? And what Uigurs are available in view of? The Population of modern Uigur area of China till 8 centuries spoke on chotaneze (iranian) language. Has passed on Turkic under influence Turkic Tokuz-Oguzes later. Here specially all confuses by to drag idea about "turkic" Avars and Yuechih. But even the British Encyclopaedia about "turkic" avars does not speak anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.24.80.233 (talk) 18:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Tocharian ancestry among Uighurs is proven by genetic data. And Avars... would not be a correct term, I agree. But there is no Panturkic agenda here, much the opposite, as this page gives far too much credence to sketchy racist (yes, they are) Chinese classical authors who do little but paint people as barbarians who (oh, how horrible) eat their food raw, live in caves, and so on. That type of author isn't going to be one that is trustworthy for actual ethnic classification- but that is how names of other groups have always been in Chinese historical documents. They are carelessly applied here and there without much deliberation, and many were interchangeable. Indeed there were some groups that very well may have been legit, but for the most part, there was absolutely nothing scientific about the works of the Chinese classical authors, and they are being given far too much authority here. I would much prefer to see genetic tests and archeology considered as well. And, worst of all, this page has no sources. If I wanted, I could make a case for its deletion. --Yalens (talk) 23:53, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Xiongnu

In this list I couldn't find Xiongnu and Tuoba. Are they included within Wuhuan, Xianbei or Jie ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:21, 3 February 2010 (UTC)