Talk:Organized crime

What was in article - 2003

The following comments were in the Organized crime article:

• explain how and why criminal organizations appear, why people join them, how government and other organizations attempt to fight them
• explain the influences of organized crime on politics

Dori 03:30, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Legitimacy

"There are at times little distinction between 'legitimate' organizations and organized crime. For instance, corrupt businesses or non-democratic governments often bear strong resemblance to organized crime. Indeed, some have theorized that states are created from organized crime."

Not that I agree at all, but that is a good one.

"Organized crime distinguishes itself from other non-governmental organizations, through its ability to provide its own protection. A legitimate business relies on a government to enforce its contracts, while organized crime must rely only upon itself. When such institutions gain legitimacy they become governments."

Homosexual are an example of 'organized' crime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.172.170.25 (talk) 16:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Separation of powers? That's all?67.120.107.11 00:09, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Organized crime as the progenitors of government

I really need a cite for this remark:

Indeed, some have theorized that states are created from organized crime.

It seems to me that states by definition must precede the existence of crime organizations. Crime is a social construct; what makes an act criminal is the prohibition of that act by the society in which it occurs. A temple prostitute in the ancient Middle East was not a criminal, nor is a worker at a legal Nevada brothel; a seller of alcohol is not a criminal where I live, but may be in a dry county. Given that law must exist for crime to exist, and that law, in this sense, is the creature of a state, it is not possible that states evolved from organized crime. Rather, organized crime is an encroachment on the state's monopoly on the use of force.

Of course then you have to define "state" in order to define "crime." There really seems no difference between enforcement of the state and activities of organized crime. The actions of so-called democratic legal systems, which are based not on the will of the majority but rather the whims of those with law degrees, are often similar in nature to what usually gets termed organized crime: whether I pay a hitman to get revenge with a bullet, or pay a lawyer to get revenge via a judge, the result is still an attack.24.64.223.203 04:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

would it not be more apposite to say that in many cases organised crime appears to be a relic of pre-modern government rather than its ancestor? I can't cite - hence the entry here rather than on the main page - but I seem to recall that both the Chinese Triads and the various Italian mafiosi (including the Camorra etc.) have feudal origins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.121.242.7 (talk) 08:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject

• WikiProject Organized crime has been proposed - see link for more information.

Internet Crime Syndicates

Is there a cite for this? If it's been going on for a decade, it seems like it would be easier than it currently is to find information about this group. --Mrsmalkav 04:41, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the involvement of governments in orgaized crime should be mentioned

This article really opens up some of the realities of the close link btween governments and criminal activity.

The War in Afghanistan: Drugs, Money Laundering and the Banking System http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NAZ20061017&articleId=3516

Clean up Criminal Organization; and merge into Organized Crime

I stumbled across the entry for criminal organization and believe that it needs to be cleaned up, written from a more neutral point of view (though I admit it's not overly opinionated either), and also requires more citations to some of the statements that are made (i.e. American political rhetoric).

The section could be merged into the organized crime wikipedia entry by elaborating on the term's usage in today's 24-hour news cycle by politicians and celebrities alike. The pop culture aspect.

I hope all that makes sense. Look forward to hearing what everyone else has to say.

-Brian (Bsheppard 11:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC))

Support: the merge is simply logic.--Giovanni Giove 14:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, merge. 12.72.30.121 20:27, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I support the merger. Organized crime or criminal organization. Same thing, except the former is the more weighty term. ~ Rollo44 07:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Possible missing word in second paragraph

In the sentence about gangs, I think that a word is missing between "organized" and "these". I don't know what that word would be so I haven't added it. Are there any ideas as to what that word might be, and if so, what are they? Iain marcuson 01:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I took a stab at it. The wording was really odd. ~ Rollo44 02:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Jewish-American organized crime and naming conventions concerning ethnic organized crime articles

There is currently a debate to discuss moving the article title of Jewish-American organized crime to American Jews in organized crime. The reasoning for this move is to provide what has been refered a less offensive and accusatory title which applies to Talk:African-American organized crime and Talk:Greek-American organized crime.

One point which was brought up was the absence from a seperate Italian-American organized crime (and Irish-American organized crime regarding the Irish Mob) and the possibility of splitting the Mafia and the Irish Mob between its U.S. and international equivalants should be considered. MadMax 07:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Always amazing to see how freaky you Americans get when it comes to language :-) Jewish-american or American-jewish.. Yeah, I guess that's a REALLY important thing to discuss. Who are you afraid of offending anyway? The american-jewish MOB? If there is a thing to think about, it's why you called the jewish eastern-european mobsters of mainly polish origin "jewish mob" in the first place. Shouldn't the italian gangsters be called "catholic mob" then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.132.54.162 (talk) 01:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The Jewish Mob is of Jewish origin, it doesn't necessarily has anything to do with religion. But I agree that it isn't offensive to anybody, it's factual history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.132.6.145 (talk) 23:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The Ashkenazim qualify as an ethnic group, and it is important to separate the East-European Jews from the Sephardim and Yemeni or Ethiopian Jews who did not participate in those gangs in part because they were not present in large numbers. It is coincidental that the gangsters, undeniably a blot upon Jewish life, are a blot on Jewish life in America. For those gangsters, Judaism was always subordinate to corrupt profit and outright theft; their crimes were always violations of Jewish law. It is safe to assume that the usual Jew of East-European origin wanted a overachieving son to outdo the successful WASP ėlite while remaining Jewish, which is a tough standard. If he couldn't do that, at least he could lead an honorable life in a useful career. (This is not to ignore that other ethnic groups in America have sought much the same, as promoted in mass media of the 1930s such as the film Angels With Dirty Faces, produced by a (then) Jewish-dominated film studio, which contrasts an Irish-American gangster whose life ends in the electric chair for murder in contrast to a wide variety of fellow Irish-Americans who live honorably and decently). So admire Albert Einstein, George Gershwin, Jacob Javits, Billy Wilder, or Jonas Salk -- not Lepke Buchalter or Bugsy Siegel. Pbrower2a (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

The combining of Kahane with Hamas and El-Qaeda is problematic. The latter openly advocate terror in the advancement of a clear religio-political agenda. Kahane-related groups (as opposed to individuals) never made such a claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.166.133.227 (talk) 11:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Beyond doubt, Kahane's Jewish Defense League has never shown any desire to convince any gentile to become Jewish; it is well enough for Judaism that gentiles act honorably and not get hostile toward Jews and Judaism. Although prone to use vigilante-style retribution against anything anti-Jewish (like KKK or neo-Nazi groups), it is not hostile to gentiles who avoid causing trouble. Missionary efforts of Jews to convert gentiles (other than gentile spouses of Jews) have not been part of Judaism. al-Qaeda in contrast, seeks to promote the power of Islam against all other religions to the detriment of all other religions with means that include mass murder. Pbrower2a (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Unreferenced tag removed

I removed the unreferenced tag from this article. That tag is nonsense as organized crime is non-mainstream and therefore you wouldn't find any written material about it. It's also common sense. It's kind of like slapping a unreferenced tag on a statement like "Gravity is real". Feel free to disagree, though! :) KoshVorlon
".. We are ALL Kosh..."
17:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

And put back up again. Not only does verifiablity policy dictate that all material on Wikipedia is sourced, your statement is also not true. There are for example many books about organised crime [[1]]. About your statement "gravity is real". If there are reliable sources that say 'gravity is real' then you can quote those sources, and say that gravity is real. If you can't find sources that state that gravity is real, it has no place in Wikipedia. Martijn Hoekstra 18:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

That is stupid and wrong. Not even in a scientific article you would have to prove the realness of gravity every time you mention it. No need to prove things that are common sense. But hey, why do I talk to you anyway? You're existance has not been proven to me by reliable sources yet :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.132.54.162 (talk) 01:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Trenchcoat mafia

These guys do not belong here. They were a group of harmless youths and have not been involved to organized crime in any way. Even IF you prefer to assoiate Eric & Dylan, the killers of Columbine High School, with the "trenchcoat mafia", they would still not belong in this list, as this crime was not an organized crime as defined in the article. So, kick'em out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.132.54.162 (talk) 01:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

IRA PIRA CIRA INLA OIRA etc

It is high time that people referencing any of the above IRAs check and research to see which one is the relevent organisation as NONE of them are the exact same entity. The IRA that I changed to Provisional IRA was one organisation that was the only legitimate army of the newly formed Irish State democratically (Sinn Fein OF THE TIME had won 70 seats out of one 105), Constitutionally (Declaration of Independance) and they did not use organised crime to get funds. Contribute properly, accurately, or not at all. Kedane (talk) 09:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Disorganized crime?

How does disorganized crime look like? RocketMaster (talk) 14:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Why no black gangs?

This article includes prison gangs like AB(which as gang signs, graffiti and other "street" characteristics), biker gangs(which have gang colors and turf wars) and all sorts of white, asian, and hispanic gangs. Yet includes only one black gang(the Yardies). If we're going to call bikers and skinheads "organized crime' than we should include at least the Country Boys(the heroin dealers who worked for Frank Lucas) and Blood Nation(a large and powerful eas coast gang. YVNP (talk) 20:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

American policy

American state was generally or occasionally fighting Irish, Italian or Polish criminality, but American state and police have done everything for supporting and protecting Jewish criminals, what is the reason for that? Was it, for example, because more than half of sponsorship and financing of American Republican and Democratic parties is having Jewish sources (that way part of what would be stolen from Jewish criminals would be “returned back” to American politicians)? Cheboksari (talk) 00:21, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

You're a nutcase. There are few faster ways to destroy your credibility than to push insane anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. 98.17.148.120 (talk) 01:22, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

We are certainly making a great discovery here. Is the Jewish mafia a kind of conspiracy? Let me propose a small clarification – every mafia is a criminal conspiracy, which for existing needs infiltrating widely and deeply in state, political and social institutions its criminal elements, connections and supporters (theory is not mine). That is most specially the case with the Jewish Mafia in America.

As you can see my comment is entitled “American policy”, meaning that I am not so much accusing the Jews for taking what is thrust for them from American policy, but I am mostly accusing American policy for creating that absurd situation. “The fool asks much, but he is more fool who grants it”.

It is sure not a secret for anyone that for many centuries the World Judeo-Christian Mafia is creating a special privileged situation for Jews in society, imposing them for example most profitable occupations with trade, usury and finance. But here America is certainly a special case. Tell me so one social area in America which wouldn’t be dominated by Jews – starting with the cinema and media and up to most high social areas, positions or occupations. Cheboksari (talk) 00:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

biased article

This article has a racist slant. It mentions many white/hispanic/asian gangs but no black gangs. I'm pretty sure someone here doesn't want black gangs mentioned here because they don't feel black people can be capable of anything "organized". In fact there was a user on here who specifically said that(although his comment was deleted). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.129.243.100 (talk) 22:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Poorly written

Many parts of the article seem to be poorly written, with incorrect grammar, missing words, and unnecessary and irrelevant information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.46.97 (talk) 01:53, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I cleaned up just a little of the grammar; maybe come back later and do a bit more. Much of this appears to have been written by someone apparently educated but culturally inexperienced, for whom English is a second language. Berberry (talk) 15:04, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Redirects

crime syndicate currently redirects to National Crime Syndicate (a specific alleged organisation). Should it redirect to here instead? Iapetus (talk) 10:57, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Casual model

This was lifted from here. I will take a stab at rewriting it at some point in time if no one else volunteers. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:15, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

He was a "made" member

Not sure where, but I just read a WP article about gangsters that didn't use a link for "made" which surprised me. The idea of an individual being "made" was a big deal (at least in the movies like Goodfellas, The Godfather and the like. It sure seems this article is "lacking" if there is no mention of "being a made man". I'll work on it. Buster Seven Talk 16:19, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Found article Made man. I guess now I've challenged myself to incorporate it here, maybe a thread on Gangster jargon. Buster Seven Talk 16:27, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Article "Organized crime in the United States"

This article doesn't exist anymore. I do not know how to figure out why ? --Japarthur (talk) 12:37, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

"Crime Ring" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Crime Ring and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 November 6#Crime Ring until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 21:02, 6 November 2022 (UTC)