Talk:Miriam

Untitled

What's the best thing to do with the asteroid link at the bottom? Avocado 01:06, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

You could create a disambiguation page. See for example London, on how it's done. Welcome, btw, it looks like you're new. Keep up the good work. : ) --MPerel^{( talk | contrib)} 01:18, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I hope I did that right. Thanks for the encouragement!

Perfect! --MPerel^{( talk | contrib)} 01:48, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Reed Sea?

Reed Sea (found in the newer versions of the Bible); Red Sea was a translation error from the Hebrew language recently corrected.

Does anyone have a reference for this? I've never heard of the Reed Sea.

Try the Sea of Reeds. If it's not already mentioned in the Red Sea article, it should be. -- Avocado 05:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Move

I moved this back to Miriam, as the move to Miriam (Bible) seemed unnecessary. We don't write Muhammad (Islam) or Jesus (Christianity). SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge Snow-white Miriam Article in

Propose merging the Snow-white Miriam article into this one, with a redirect. The Snow-White Miriam article covers one incident in Miriam's life, not a different subject. --Shirahadasha 06:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Merging the article in would cause it to basically dominate this one. Maybe it needs a paragraph summary and a link to the full article. The discussion there of various interpretations of the incident doesn't deserve to be cut from Wikipedia, but also doesn't seem to me to be really appropriate for this article about the character herself (it's mostly about Jewish law, with some parts that are more about Zipporah than Miriam). --Avocado 11:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion on deletion/merger of Snow-white Miriam

A proposal to delete or merge Snow-white Miriam into this article is currently going on on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Snow-white Miriam. Please express your opinion there. --Shirahadasha 03:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The result of that AfD was to merge Snow-white Miriam into Miriam. Anyone can feel free to perform the merge at any time and make Snow-white Miriam a redirect. —Mets501 (talk) 02:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Maria Prophetissa

Is it worth adding anything about the fact that Miriam is regarded as being Maria Prophetissa, the mysterious figure to whom the secrets of Alchemy were given? Esotericists see her as being as important as Moses in the transmission of mystical secrets. See the link Mary the Jewess. ThePeg 15:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

These are completely different people who happen to have the same first name, so there's no reason to have a mention about one in an article about the other. It may, however, be appropriate to have a disambiguation page. --Shirahadasha 02:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Snow White Miriam section

• Dreadful tabloid name. Suggest renaming to Miriam's leprosy
• Why is this section (about people who have been dead for thousands of years) written in present tense?
• Is the paragraph about questioning Moses' authority Original Research? Is there a textual basis for this? --Dweller 16:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the name, it comes from Richard Friedman's book so it is sourced. I don't particularly like the name either, but it was found earlier to have some notability. Regarding the paragraph on Moses' authority, your point is well taken. The story is in the present tense because the source, Richard Elliott Friedman, uses this tense. (See e.g. "In this story, Aaron and Miriam speak against Moses regarding his wife, and God personally reprimands them" on p. 76 of Who Wrote the Bible). I speculate that Professor Friedman may use the present tense in an aorist or "indefinite" sense to reflect his view that this is "story" which is better described in the manner of a piece of literature (where present tense is common for narratives) and not in the manner of historical accounts which take place at particular times, but be that as it may the approach reflects the source. Sections on more traditional views use the past tense to reflect the traditional view that the events involved are historical and take place within actual time. I also clarified the challenge was to "exclusive" authority and cited the relevant verse. Feel free to propose something more appropriate, but the result should reflect Richard Friedman's view as this is currently the only source for the "Snow White Miriam" concept. --Shirahadasha 19:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

If the section dealt more generally with the story of Miriam's leprosy (the Bible being a bigger seller than Richard Friedman, whoever he is) it could then include a small note about this theory, which would be a better reflection of the relative importance of the subject matter. There's also no need to ape daft prose technique in our encyclopedia, except when we directly quote. --Dweller 09:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

See also previous discussion in the history of the merged article, its talk page and the discussion at Articles for Deletion. - Fayenatic london (talk) 17:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Paragraph 2

Which baby, which river and which pharoh? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.77.154.214 (talk) 21:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Black

I see no mention of the colour of Moses' wife in the Book of Numbers. Granted, Wikipedia does have a page on Black People, but it seems to me that the term has too much baggage to be considered NPOV. I don't think you can equate the (possible) racism of Miriam's day to the racist attitudes of today. It seems to me that people were more tribal then, and things weren't "black and white", as it were. Or, if you feel that the term "black" really is appropriate, then please add some text explaining why it is.

65.24.249.74 01:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia article contradicts its own sources on supposed Egyptian etymology for Miriam

The Wikipedia article claims the following possible Egyptian etymology for Miriam: "Meryamun: 'beloved of Amun'"

However this is not only implausible, it contradicts the very source cited by this Wikipedia article to support this theory, in Reference 2, which states that:

"This suggested etymology is disputed; as a female name it would be "Meritamun", which is not that close in pronunciation."

In fact, the daughter of Pharaoh Rameses was called Meritamen ("beloved of Amon"), and there is a separate Wikipedia article about her. Meritamen seems too distant from the name Miriam to be the true origin of Miriam. There is no such name "Meryamun". This a concoction of the Wikipedia article, with no evidence to support it. The idea that Miriam was named after the Egyptian god Amon is as far-fetched as the theory, popular among some Bible scholars, that the Hebrew word "Amen" is also based on the name of Amon.

I believe there are 3 possible Hebrew etymologies for the name Miriam. One possibility is based on the root M-R-Y, meaning "rebellious". This is cited in the article.

A second possibility, also alluded to in this article, is "bitterness". This etymology is supported by the article on Miriam in the Jewish encyclopedia:

"Miriam was born at the time when the Egyptians began to embitter the lives of the Israelites by imposing arduous tasks upon them (comp. Ex. i. 14), and for this reason she was called "Miriam," since the consonants in the word "Miriam" (מרים) may also read "marim" (="bitter"; Cant. R. ii. 11)." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=655&letter=M

Another possible etymology, which I have not seen cited anywhere, simply follows the same logic as the aforementioned etymology mentioned in the Jewish Encyclopedia. The consonants in the word "Miriam" (מרים) spell another word "merim", which is based on the root "ram", meaning elevated, high, exalted. It has cognate words in Hebrew like "merom"/"marom" (elevated), "meromah" (heavenward), and "meromam" (exalted).

This word "Merim" is found in Psalm 3:

וְאַתָּה יְהוָה, מָגֵן בַּעֲדִי; כְּבוֹדִי, וּמֵרִים רֹאשִׁי.

"But thou, Oh Lord, art a shield about me; my glory, and the lifter up of my head."

With a slight rearrangement of the vowels, but keeping the same consonants, the word "Miriam", מִרְיָם, could mean something along the lines of "one that is lifted up/exalted".

As for the proposed etymology "wished for child" for Miriam, I cannot see where this comes from. But I would be interested to know how someone arrived at this explanation.

J.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 20:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm responsible for some of the edit history. Following your helpful edit, I think I have integrated it better now. I don't know who left the original comment that I made visible, disputing Meritamun as a possible origin of Miriam. The suggestion was apparently made in the cited book. This time I have removed the dispute from the article; it is sufficently clear that the origin is disputed, from the existence of alternative derivations.

The "wished for child" seems to be from Behind the Name -- feel free to contact them. At Wikipedia there is a core policy of WP:No original research; we just summarise the best WP:reliable sources that we can find. - Fayenatic (talk) 21:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Arabic Name

Ive Fixed the Arabic name because the name written there was Maryam which is the name of Virgin of Mary in Arabic while as in Arabic we refer to the sister of Moses as Meeryaam so I corrected it in Arabic Highdeeboy (talk) 10:10, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Isn't that the same person according to Quran? 216.144.26.242 (talk) 19:33, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Islamic Narrative

Id just like to add a small little paragraph about Miriam and her existence in Islamic Narrative its extremly similar to the biblical account, The Quran speaks about her in the following verses

020.038 YUSUFALI: "Behold! We sent to thy mother, by inspiration, the message:

020.039 YUSUFALI: "'Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him': But I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.

020.040 YUSUFALI: "Behold! thy sister goeth forth and saith, 'shall I show you one who will nurse and rear the (child)?' So We brought thee back to thy mother, that her eye might be cooled and she should not grieve. Then thou didst slay a man, but We saved thee from trouble, and We tried thee in various ways. Then didst thou tarry a number of years with the people of Midian. Then didst thou come hither as ordained, O Moses!

028.010 YUSUFALI: But there came to be a void in the heart of the mother of Moses: She was going almost to disclose his (case), had We not strengthened her heart (with faith), so that she might remain a (firm) believer.

028.011 YUSUFALI: And she said to the sister of (Moses), "Follow him" so she (the sister) watched him in the character of a stranger. And they knew not.

028.012 YUSUFALI: And we ordained that he refused suck at first, until (His sister came up and) said: "Shall I point out to you the people of a house that will nourish and bring him up for you and be sincerely attached to him?"...

028.013 YUSUFALI: Thus did We restore him to his mother, that her eye might be comforted, that she might not grieve, and that she might know that the promise of Allah is true: but most of them do not understand.Moodswingster (talk) 21:24, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

There is no need to add any situation needed mainly because Ironically there is a Hadith mentioned talking about the name of Moses's sister and that hadith can be found the link YOU provided which is the Quranic and biblical narratives in that Hadith Prophet Mohamed states people back then used to give names of important figures to another which lead to the mother of Christ called Mary but however Muslim scholars coined up a name for the sister of Moses calling her Meeriam instead of Maryam to remove confusion because she is not mentioned by name in the QuranMoodswingster (talk) 12:25, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Interesting... Quran includes much Agadata and Midrash. However, they seemed to have missed the one about Pharaoh's daughter undergoing conversion at the time of finding Moses 216.144.26.242 (talk) 19:37, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn't this article mention the academic discussion questioning Miriam's relationship with Moses?

There is a controvery over this in the academic literature that is not reflected in the article. See for instance [1], [2] [3] [4]

[5]

[6] Dougweller (talk) 12:53, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Why isnt there any Biblical account of Miriam?! 82.194.62.25 (talk) 09:26, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Extensive Edit - Feb 2017

This major edit was done under the advice of a wiki-Editor who, after reviewing the proposed additions, advised to expand the current article on Miriam, rather then starting a new one under a different title. The intention of this edit was to add, not subtract or delete. Thus, nearly all of the original content was preserved, but re-ordered and integrated into a chronological presentation of the life of Miriam. Much effort was invested to preserve the wording of the original content, except where it was inaccurate based on the sources provided, or unclear. Regarding citations, many of the originals were corrected, expanded or elucidated. And some were added where missing. The use of citations from Jewish primary sources (Tanach, Talmud, Midrash, Classical Commentators, etc.), while extensive, is no different than as in the original, but more complete and accurate.

Jbu777 (talk) 16:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

family tree

This is pretty much unsourced OR, and has been vandalized in any case.

Family tree

Jacob

Leah

Levi

Gershon

Kohath

Merari

Libni

Shimei

Izhar

Hebron

Uzziel

Mahli

Mushi

Jochebed

Amram

Mishael

Elzaphan

Zithri

{{{HUR}}}

Miriam

Aaron

Moses

Zipporah

Gershom

Eliezer

-- Jytdog (talk) 02:25, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

the information in this chart is a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject, as can be verified by following the links to the specific articles in WP on each entry.

in addition, the sources for the information in the chart which is particular to this article, namely the immediate family and marital relatives of miriam, are cited in sections 1 and 2 regarding her pedigree, siblings, spouse, and son.

it is wrong, and represses knowledge, to keep deleting this chart from the article.

Jbu777 (talk) 21:29, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

1) "HUR" is vandalism, and you have now added that twice to Wikipedia. That is now your vandalism.

2) It is invalid in Wikipedia to claim something is "accepted knowledge" and not provide a source, when content is challenged. See WP:BURDEN. There are complex relationships expressed in this chart that are not sourced, and may or may not be accurate. A Wikilink is not a reliable source. Wikipedia articles are not reliable sources, per WP:USERGENERATED. Jytdog (talk) 21:39, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Removal of unverified categories

Muslim female saints,Islamic personalities mentioned in the Hebrew Bible,Islamic figures,Muslim female saints from the Old Testament,Christian female saints from the Old Testament, have been removed as categories. PerWP:CATV Categorization of articles must be verifiable. It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories. The article does not source the claim that Miriam is a saint, whether Christian or Muslim, at all. Per WP:CATDEF A central concept used in categorizing articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having". It is not a defining characteristic of this person that she is an "Islamic figure" or "Islamic personality".Smeat75 (talk) 00:24, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Miriam

The "Torah"

Pharisaic Talmudic demons

You're not the people of the old testament, you are not Hebrews. 94.156.230.143 (talk) 17:36, 4 January 2022 (UTC)