Talk:Södertörn University

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Discussion moved from Talk:University College of South Stockholm

Opening heading

This article is based on a (questionably) literal translation of the Swedish name for Södertörns högskola. The name of the college in English is according to their own webpage Södertörn University College. Peter Isotalo 14:51, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Moved back to Södertörn University

The institution does officially use the name Södertörn University in English (per website), and apparently has for the last few years. It would be original research to invent our own title for the institution (Södertörn College), instead of the name the institution uses itself.

It should be noted that "högskola" ("high school") does not have an exact equivalent in the English language, so both university, college or university college are possible translations. Such institutions provide education and conduct research at university-level in any case.

Of course the matter of whether it is considered a (full) university by Swedish law is appropriately dealt with in the article.GVU (talk) 11:19, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Swedish WP article also lists its English name as Södertörn University, btw. GVU (talk) 13:22, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The institution is not a university as defined by Swedish law. Swedish universities have the right to grant doctor's degrees, they are research oriented and they are given university status only by the Swedish government, but neither by wikipedia users nor by the university's press office. The translation as "university" is wrong, because it gives the false impression that Södertörn College is a Swedish university, which it is not, it is simply a college. The college may very well translate högskola as university but that is misleading, because it does not have the rights of a university such as Uppsala University or other Swedish universities. --Axt (talk) 16:08, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I'm very willing to change the name in the minute the högskola is grantet full universitet status, but let's wait until then. --Axt (talk) 16:15, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PPS: It doesn't matter what they do in the Swedish wikipedia as this is the English-speaking wikipedia version. Other versions are not binding, and the Swedish article only mentions that the university calls itself "university", but it makes no claim as to wether it is one or whether that is a correct translation of the status it has been given by Swedish lawmakers. --Axt (talk) 16:19, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PPPS:Most other Swedish högskola translate themselves as university college, hence as colleges. Therefore, it is not original research to call it what it is. --Axt (talk) 16:22, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted your edits/move per Wikipedia:No original research. It's not for you to invent a new name in English for the institution. You can disagree with the name the institution uses as much as you want, but Wikipedia is not the right place to promote such views. It doesn't matter what it is called in Swedish (högskola or universitet) because this is the English language Wikipedia, and reliable sources show evidence that its official name in English is Södertörn University[1], not Södertörn College, a name invented by you. GVU (talk) 14:14, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Google return 36 800 hits for the official name "Södertörn University" and only 213 for "Södertörn College". GVU (talk) 14:39, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The decision to use the name Södertörn University in English obviously isn't a decision merely taken by the press office, but rather by the board of Södertörn University. GVU (talk) 14:19, 13 March 2009 (UTC) It should be pointed out that Södertörn University is - according to the independent evaluation from 2006 (see link in article) - research-oriented, has doctoral students, has more faculty with doctorates than the "new" universities in Sweden (Karlstad etc.) and the same percentage as the old universities, and satisfies the criteria to be defined as a university. It's name in Swedish is irrelevant to this Wikipedia edition, since an official English name is available. GVU (talk) 21:27, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Your view is biased, perhaps because you work or study there. No matter how many arguments you find, your statement that it "satisfies the criteria to be defined as a university" is wrong. The Swedish government is the only institution in Sweden that can decide wether an institution of higher education is a "universitet/university" or a "högskola/college" in Sweden, it is not a matter for the institutions to decide by themselves in that country. The same difference between full universities and colleges is made in various other countries like Germany, Norway, Suisse, etc (högskola corresponds to Fachhochschule, not to university. To name this mentioning of legal facts original research is nonsense, because it is there for anyone to read in the law. IT is a fact that the college in Södertörn has not been given the rights and responsibilities of a university by the Swedes. It is a joke to claim that Södertörn högskola is anywhere near the research depth and quantity of such "real universties" like Stockholm, Uppsala, Gothenburg or Lund. --Axt (talk) 10:03, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is a compromise that I would support, which is simply using the Swedish name, Södertörn högskola, as long as (1) you disagree with the translation of "högskola" as college, and/or (2) until it has been given university status by the Swedish government. --Axt (talk) 10:07, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not I who diagree with such a translation, it's Södertörn University which uses a different translation. GVU (talk) 22:17, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do neither work nor study there. Also, neither you nor I are entitled to ignore Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), so it's not possible to use the native name as its title. All other articles of this kind use English names, and in this case, an official and established English name is available. What you have brought up, concerning its legal status, is addressed in the article. And it is original research to claim the name the institution uses is illegal, based on your own reading of the law. If it was illegal, I'm sure Swedish authorities would have made sure the institution used a different name, Södertörn is a big public institution after all. GVU (talk) 22:01, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that there are institutions of tertiary education below the university level. These are called högskola in Scandinavia, Hochschule in German-speaking countries, and there are similar institutions in the Netherlands and elsewhere. In all these countries, there is a legal definition of what a university/universität/universitet is and what a högskola/Hochschule/hogskole is. Some of the latter ones have been raised to university status, but other's like Södertörns hogskola have not. I think we agree until here. The point is that these institution often call themselves "universities" in English, because the laws of the country only apply to their national languages, hence they make use of a legal loophole. By claiming to be a "university" on their English-language websites, though not being one in "reality", these colleges gain reputation with foreign students, foreign researchers, and perhaps even gain funding. This is not only a questionable behaviour on the college's side, but this "crossing of lines" by the use of legal loopholes also happens much to the dismay of all the real universities in those countries where a seperation of universities and colleges is quite clearly made. Now, I don't know in how far you agree with me until here. In any case, it is troubled waters, because there is no perfect translation of "högskola" in English, and the closest you get is "college". German "Hochschulen" usually translate the term into "university of applied sciences" in English (even worse than the Swedish translation "university college", which implies it is a college a/b/c/d of a university, although it is an institution in its own right and standing), but if they called themselves "Universität für angewandte Wissenschaft" in German then they would use the title "universität" illegally and be sued. Same case in Sweden. If you agree to use "university college" in the article, why not use college? There are thousands of colleges out there, it's a common term for such an institution. Of course you can insist on what Södertörns högskola calls itself on their English website, but that can only be a guide as to what is used -- it is not he ultima ratio. Other's use "university college", "university of applied sciences", "college", "academy", etc. I just think it is a very questionable behaviour of that högskola to call themselves "university" in English even though they know they couldn't do that in Swedish. They are knowingly fooling the non-Swedish-speaking visitors to their website. Oh well, good night.... --Axt (talk) 01:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree that they make use of a legal loophole, but still, it's not for Wikipedia to be the judge, and the institution simply doesn't use the name Södertörn College, nor is it referred to as such. I do believe the precedent at Wikipedia is rather clear: We must use the English name the institution uses itself as the article title. We can discuss, citing reliable sources, the nature of its legal status and possible controversy surrounding its name.

My affiliation is not with Södertörn, but with a "real" (old) university. However, I don't really have a problem with Södertörn being referred to as a university, and the use of the term "university" in English isn't totally without justification. Södertörn is a more special case, since it was planned as a university from the beginning and has an academic staff at the same level as the "old" universities according to the 2006 evaluation. It's also not correct that university colleges are not engaged in research, and Södertörn certainly is (it has a good reputation as a research institution in Scandinavia). It also has doctoral students. The distinction between university colleges and universities (especially the new ones) is not always that clear. There are also large differences between the university colleges. Södertörn cannot be compared to the American community colleges, which are usually only offering 2 years of undergraduate studies, while Södertörn is offering quaternary education (although without the right to award doctoral degrees themselves, but this is about to change even without full university status) and engaging in research. GVU (talk) 06:01, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you understand Swedish, I recommend reading from page 18 in Årsredovisning 2008 ("Forskning och forskarutbildning"). It also cites the percentage of faculty with doctorates (a Scandinavian doctorate is more than a German one), which is (as of 2007) 60 % for Södertörn, compared to the overall 58 % for the universities and the overall 39 % for the university colleges. GVU (talk) 06:45, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it technically doesn't have "real" doctoral students, because the doctorates are awarded by the University of Stockholm, as Södertörn itself does not have the right to grant doctoral degrees as of now (page 19-20: Trots att Södertörns högskola ännu inte har examensrätt för doktorsexamen, bedrivs en omfattande forskarutbildning i samarbete med lärosäten med examensrätt. Vid högskolan finns idag 81 doktorander. [..] Forskarutbildningen i humaniora och samhällsvetenskap bedrivs framför allt inom ett samarbetsavtal med Stockholms universitet. Ämnen vid Södertörns högskola med magisterexamensrättigheter och minst en tillsvidareanställd professor har möjlighet att upprätta avtal med Stockholms universitet.). The various plans for the future, including several applications to the Swedish government are obviously true. However, whether the decision on these applications is going to be made in the near future, let alone if they will be positive, is a matter of speculation. In a country of "only" 9 or 10 million people, which already has four large traditional and even more new universities, I would not be all too positive about the outcome of the application at all. Therefore, an argument like "yes they do not now, but they may in the future" doesn't pull, because nobody can predict the future. What we know for sure is, that there are two types of institutions providing higher education in Sweden, 1) universitet and 2) högskola. Despite the fact that there are medium stages between those two poles, the legal definition in this case is quite clear. It doesn't really matter how many staff members possess doctor's degrees, I believe the vast majority of staff at German or Dutch Fachhochschulen has doctor's degrees, but the governmental recognition of their employee is a whole different story. I do find your comment that the Scandinavian PhDs are "more than" a German one very irritating. I personally know doctoral students from both countries and I can't see a difference, at least not in the sciences and humanities. On the contrary, German PhD students usually hold courses and lectures and are frequently treated like a full member of the teaching staff, while Swedish ones are required to attend a certain amount of courses without usually doing any teaching. Well, I guess wikipedia's rules are yet another loophole for Södertörn högskola, but I do recommend addressing the issue clearly in the article. It is a fairly short article as of now, therefore the proportion of criticism in relation to the whole article is ok at the moment. I do find it strange that the Swedish government turns a blind eye on such behaviour on the part of the institution they finance with tax money. It is a thing that is going on in various countries however, as I have mentioned before. PS: I too am a graduate and a graduate student at a traditional university in Germany and Sweden, respectively. --Axt (talk) 14:11, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To me it is unacceptable to have a separate solution for one Swedish högskola (or perhaps two, given University of Borås) - the same solution should be applied to all. Therefore I've brought it up as a WPSweden issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sweden#College or University or University College? Tomas e (talk) 16:44, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a separate solution. We're only using its official (and established) English name. If you don't like that name, you should take it up with Södertörn University and tell them why you think they ought to use a different name. Wikipedia cannot invent names for institutions. GVU (talk) 16:34, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But Wikipedia must stick to the truth. Also, nobody is "inventing" names, there is a list of official translations published by the Swedish government, in which "högskola" is not translated as "university". --Axt (talk) 10:26, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Logo of institution

The logo of the institution says "Södertörns högskola" (in Swedish) and "Södertörn University" (in English): http://www.sh.se GVU (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Prestige and controversy

The article did not bring up any of the other well-known controversies surrounding the school. I have added a few. Also, regardless of whether the school should call itself a college or a uni, it is worth mentioning that it suffers from a significantly lower level of percieved prestige than other institutions that are at the same level. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.73.69.127 (talk) 12:03, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Mälardalen College which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 06:30, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Mälardalen University College which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 15:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move of talk page

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: already moved. PC78 (talk) 11:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Södertörn University → Talk:Södertörn University College — To have the talk page under the same name as the article, rather than under a redirected name. This request refers to talk page only. Tomas e (talk) 17:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy move. Uncontroversial. PC78 (talk) 11:30, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:41, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Södertörn University College → Södertörn University – Södertörn University Collage have changed name to: Södertörn University. Source: http://webappo.web.sh.se/p3/ext/content.nsf/aget?openagent&site=om_sodertorn_engelsk. 83.250.45.126 (talk) 14:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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