Talk:Vicar

Explanation for a general audience

I came to this page to find out about the difference between a vicar and a parson, and I'm having a hard time understanding the information on this page. Could someone add some description that would help a more general audience?

I've added the information to this article and to parson and curate. Basically a parson is a parish priest who receives the temporalities of a benefice and is either a rector, vicar or perpetual curate. I hope this helps. — Gareth Hughes 11:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Distinction between Vicar and Rector

According to the afterword to Anthony Trollope's The Last Chronicle of Barset, the distinction (for the Anglican Church) between Vicar and Rector is receipt of the great tithes as opposed to the lesser tithes. Parish clergymen who received neither were perpetual curates. An Act of Parliament contributed to the confusion by permitting all perpetual curates to style themselves vicars. -- Alan Peakall 16:36 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)

The distinction I got is as it was stated in a 1957 Encyclopedia Britannica. Assuming it is true, I'm not sure how helpful Trollope's distinction would be without knowing what great tithes or lesser tithes were. ---Ihcoyc

Thanks for the speedy reply. The afterword that I referred to was that of the editor of a modern edition, not that of AT himself. Off hand I cannot remember the precise aportionment of parish aggricultural output between great tithes and lesser tithes, but I am confident that I can retrieve this information from the same source for addition to the article provided that you do not have better information to the contrary. -- Alan Peakall 17:50 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)

If you have more data, by all means take it and run with it. I started this page because in something else that I know more about, I referenced the fact that a subject was made a vicar and it came up red, and I wondered why some clergymen in England were vicars and others weren't. ---Ihcoyc

Thanks for the go-ahead. The author of the afterword that I referenced was Laurence Lerner. I have linked to the article on tithes (which in turn links to Dissolution of the Monasteries), in the hope of this update setting up beneficial ripples. Maybe there should be a link here from curate or a redirect page perpetual curate. -- Alan Peakall 09:34 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)

Well, if this keeps up we'll be reading a single column of letters across the right margin. AAR, I have set up a page at curate that for now redirects here. So far, this page is the only one linking there. Perhaps curé may also be needed at some time. -- Ihcoyc

Perhaps a rector combines the functions of co-arb and erenagh (ie vicar and parson) as described in the Ulster section? --

Distracting blank spaces

Formatting that encases the framed table of contents in text, in just the way a framed map or image is enclosed within the text, is now available: {{TOCleft}} in the HTML does the job.

Blank space opposite the ToC, besides being unsightly and distracting, suggests that there is a major break in the continuity of the text, which may not be the case. Blanks in page layout are voids and they have meanings to the experienced reader. The space betweeen paragraphs marks a brief pause between separate blocks of thought. A deeper space, in a well-printed text, signifies a more complete shift in thought: note the spaces that separate sub-headings in Wikipedia articles.

A handful of thoughtless and aggressive Wikipedians revert the "TOCleft" format at will. A particularly aggressive de-formatter is User:Ed g2s

The reader may want to compare versions at the Page history. --Wetman 20:06, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion, we should let the reader decide how they want the TOC displayed, as it is easily changed by editing their personal css style sheet. Gentgeen 17:30, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Ordinary and PMadrids edits

Wrong, no, incorrect.

VGs and EVs are "ordinaries" only with regard to exercise of their power, not with regard to source. Their jurisdiction is vicarious, which is why they are vicars, eh? That is, the source of their authority is delegated, hence they are delegates, which is why the VG loses jurisdiction with the death of the bishop (Cn. 481). They are, in fact, properly "quasi-ordinaries" in that they exercise functions by the law itself (475, 479), and so are ordinaries in the exercise of their office, but their jurisdiction is derivative (479, in that the bishop may restrict or limit their jurisdiction). "This is vicarial jurisdiction, delegated as to its source, but ordinary as to its exercise, and which would be more accurately termed quasi-ordinary. In this sense vicars-general and diocesan officials are ordinaries." (Boudhinon; cf Sagmuller). In short, as you have it written, VGs are equivalents of diocesan bishops, which is emphatically not the case.HarvardOxon 21:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I resolved this properly, but in order to avoid copying my response into each page that this note appears, I direct all interested parties to see my talk page and Talk:Vicar general for the response. Pmadrid 04:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Vicariates

The Roman Catholic Diocese of Erie in northwestern Pennsylvania, USA, is divided into three vicariates, each consisting of three to six counties (or parts thereof). See Map of Erie Diocese But when I search "vicariate" in Wikipedia (and in the Catholic Encyclopedia online), only the term "apostolic vicariate" comes up -- a Catholic administrative unit where a diocese doesn't exist, typically in the developing world. A search of Google reassures me that at least three American dioceses (Newark, Detroit, Hawaii) have subdivisions called vicariates. No doubt there are more. I recommend that the term vicariate be identified and discussed in Wikipedia from the perspective of its hierarchical role in Roman Catholic administration in the articles on Diocese and Parish. Seems to me it should also be in this Vicar article because of the nature of the word itself. Pat 08:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Is a deanery a subdivision of a vicariate? The biography of Leonard Olivier labels his role as head of regional deaneries in the Archdiocese of Washington. The article about the archdiocese itself makes no mention of deaneries or vicariates, and the archdiocese webpage makes no mention of a substructure of church government to handle the parishes, whether by county or otherwise. Note that the Diocese of Erie identifies one or two deaneries within each vicariate. Pat 09:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

Judging by the etymologies given in the OED and in the American Heritage Dictionary, there's no etymological relationship between "vicar" and "vizier."

65.213.77.129 (talk) 13:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

...then vizier shouldn't be mentioned in the article.-Wetman (talk) 13:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The articles Vicarius, Vicar, and Vizier all contain the claim that Vicar and Vizier are related. However, as far as I can make out the sole source for this is Klein's A comprehensive etymological dictionary of the English language. Klein is unique in making this connection and, I would suggest, is not to be trusted. A review of the first volume of that Dictionary provides this insight:

Dr. Klein claims to give the derivation of many words usually described as 'of unknown etymology', and the like, 'whereas their provenance is very well known. My dictionary contains the etymology of several hundred such words.'

It may be doubted whether any scholar would dismiss as unknown the origin of words whose 'etymology can be established beyond doubt'. Let us take a few examples of Dr Klein's optimistic solution: embezzle [...] In connexion with OFr. besillier Dr. Klein writes: 'I suggest that OFr. beser derives from OHG. bizzan, equivalent of OE bitan bite, sting, which is phonologically and geographically impossible.

G. W. S. Friedrichsen, 'Review of A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the English Language. Vol. I, A-K by Ernest Klein', The Review of English Studies , New Series, Vol. 18, No. 71 (Aug., 1967), pp. 295-297

And so on.

None of this, of course, means that Klein is necessarily wrong on the Vicar - Vizier point, but his work is sufficiently contentious that I don't feel it can be cited as fact in an Encyclopedia. I suggest we should remove this claim from these three pages. What does everyone else think? Falamingotoo (talk) 11:34, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I have now looked up Klein and in fact he does not claim these words as cognates. Falamingotoo (talk) 15:37, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Are vicars celebate?

I cant find this info in the article --71.113.234.160 (talk) 05:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The duties are not a matter of celibacy. The religion is. Latin rite Catholics are; most others aren't. Student7 (talk) 01:52, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Related to this issue, the article makes it clear that Lutheran vicars are not yet ordained, but never states whether or not Roman Catholic vicars are ordained or are lay-people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eldamorie (talk • contribs) 16:16, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Split?

This page rather seems like it could do with being turned into a proper disambiguation page. While the various theological posts discussed all have shared characteristics, they aren't all necessarily of interest to a general audience; for instance, to get to vicar (Anglicanism) you've got to drill through half the article at the moment. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:01, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The meaning and history of the term vicar is a useful encyclopedia subject, one that includes the example of Vicar (Anglicanism). Breaking subjects into the smallest possible elements is the work of the dictionary, and in its very nature sheds information.--Wetman (talk) 17:43, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm. Is there genuinely that much common ground between the archaic use and the modern? At the very least the lede should devote more time to the latter. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 18:51, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

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