Talk:4-6-4

First 4-6-4?

The article fails to assert where the 4-6-4 type actually originated; it just states that France built the first 4-6-4 tender locomotives in 1911. However, I know that New Zealand operated 4-6-4 tank locomotives before this date. In 1902, three members of the 1899 B class were rebuilt into the We class with a wheel arrangement of 4-6-4T, and then in 1910, NZR's Hillside Workshops built a wholly new class of 4-6-4T locomotives, the Wg class. I'm about to add this to the article, but I don't want to blindly assert New Zealand ran the first 4-6-4 locomotives purely on the basis that the We and Wg classes predate anything else in the article, as I am aware there may be 4-6-4T locomotives from elsewhere built even earlier. Can anyone clarify? - Axver 11:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

<rant>This gets into my pet gripe with the current Whyte type infobox - the lack of differentiation between tender and tank engine types. If the first 4-6-4T was the rebuilt NZ B class then that's great, but I think inserting that information into an article that defines the Hudson or Baltic as a locomotive with a bogie to support a much larger firebox seems to be of questionable relevance and something that would probably confuse those not 'in the know'. I think we need either a separate article for 4-6-4T, or at least a separate section within the existing article, as the place for this information to go.</rant>

If we say that New Zealand built the first 4-6-4 on the basis of a 4-6-4T, then it's only a matter of time before someone applies the same logic and says that because some operator in Wales or Lichtenstein or French Indochina or the Upper Volta converted a 4-6-0 into 4-6-2T in 1889, it's not correct to say that the world's first Pacific was the NZ Q class. (I'm not certain, but I'd be prepared to bet that someone built a 4-6-2T before 1901!)

Of course none of this actually answers your actual question! ;-) Zzrbiker 12:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, I agree with pretty much most of what you said. We definitely need some better differentiation between the tank and tender locomotive types. I wouldn't state NZR built the first 4-6-4 on the basis of a 4-6-4T either; assuming NZR's Wg (not the rebuilt We!) was first, I would say something more along the lines of "NZR was the first to employ the 4-6-4 wheel arrangement, but employed it on a tank locomotive" (and point out the distinction between this type and the tender engine type). I certainly wouldn't use the 1902 We as a reference point for the first 4-6-4T, as it wasn't a true 4-6-4T built from scratch and originally designed that way (though admittedly, I'm a bit sketchy on why three B 4-8-0s were converted into the We 4-6-4Ts). I know some 4-6-0s were rebuilt as 4-6-2s before the NZR Q (I think that's even acknowledged in the 4-6-2 article), but the Q class was the first "true" 4-6-2. In the same way, if NZR was first, I'd acknowledge the 1902 We, and then focus on the first "true" 4-6-4T in the Wg. (Sorry if this sounds convoluted; I'm in a rush.) - Axver 12:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The first 4-6-4 engines

Australia:

No article on this topic so far mentions the 4-6-4 tank engines put into service by the New South Wales Government Railways (Australia) in 1903-4, class S-636, weight in service 73.3 tonnes. The first 35 were bought from the UK firm of Beyer, Peacock & Coy (their favourite builders) followed by another 110 built by both British & Australian builders regularly up to 1917 [sources: NSW Steam Locomotive Data, issued by the Department of Railways, Research and Information Section, April, 1966; A Compendium of NSW Steam Locomotives, edited by A Grunbach, 1989,.]

I contend that these engines are the FIRST deliveries of new 4-6-4 tank engines in the world. The three NZ We class 4-6-4 tank engines were conversions from 4-8-0s as stated.

Germany:

The Prussian-Hessian Railways contracted with Henschel & Co for a 4-6-4 4-cylinder compound tank engine delivered in 1904 (ERFURT No. 1980, later 9051), class T 16.1. This unusual machine had driving cabs at each end and weighed 108.3 tonnes. This would appear to be the SECOND 4-6-4T type in the world. It may not have been a great success as it spent much time 'kalt abgestellt' in the depot. It was sent to France in 1919 as part of the 5,000 steam engine reparations payments levied on the German state after WW1. [Lokomotiv-Archiv Preussen, Tender lokomotiven, Band 3, A Wagner, Bechtermuenz Verlag, Stuttgart, 1996.]

France:

The third 4-6-4T engine in the world would appear to be the French NORD type already mentioned, and one of these is exhibited in the SNCF Mulhouse Museum partly sectioned.

Italy

Perhaps the Italians had a 4-6-4 express engine built about 1904 also cab forward about which I am still researching.

I contend that some of the claims already made might need revision. UK 4-6-4 tank engines followed from 1911-12 from the London, Tilbury & Southend line, the Glasgow & South-western, Lancashire & Yorkshire railway, the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway, and in Ireland.

I am still researching this topic.

220.253.64.185 05:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like good stuff! Don't forget to WP:CITE your sources when you add the information to the article, especially as this article has no references yet. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 11:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Main Image

When people think of a 4-6-4 locomotive they are probably going to think of a big American one with a tender, maybe streamlined, not an obscure Sotuh African tank engine, so can we change the main image?2601:245:C101:9C70:929:A5EF:41DF:7F19 (talk) 05:15, 18 January 2021 (UTC)