Talk:Zoot suit

Chicano

Chicano, I am pretty sure, is a 1960's neologism, so it is an anachronism in this article. Pachuco might be substituted, but I don't think that is quite right either. I'll try to do some research for a more appropriate term. [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 09:02, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Chicano was around since at least the WWI era. It's use was strictly a perjorative, usually given by Mexican born parents to criticize their americanized progeny (It still has a negative connotation amongst recent immigrants from Mexico). In the Chicano Movement of the 1960s, however, it's meaning was appropriated to mean a politically an/or culturally conscious Mexican American. It has been somewhat been tied to the gang culture since the 1970s and therefore carries a negative meaning outside of artistic and collegiate circles. Pozole 05:29, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

2nd Picture of the Guys in "Zoot Suits"

As remarked on below in the section entitled "wedding image," the men in the picture are NOT wearing authentic Zoot Suits. They are wearing Zoot Tuxes. I visited the main location of the company El Pachuco and they told me authentic Zoot Suits do not have vests. The point of the style was to show off the high waist and suspenders. A Zoot Tux with a vest is basically just a long coat because it conceals the high waist and suspenders. So the caption of the picture needs to be changed but I don't know how to change it. Thanks. HuronKing Sunday January 25th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.202.25 (talk) 22:34, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah but the caption is hilarious. --71.173.214.181 (talk) 18:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Origin of zoot

"zoot" is a commonly used term for a marijuana cigarette. I think this deserves a mention, or at least some searching for references to a possible link. Apologies I can't be that person! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.145.32.141 (talk) 17:02, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Could somebody verifiy the authenticity of this line:

The word "zoot" probably comes from the French word zut (meaning "damn!")

It seems a bit shady to me, and I don't have the time at the moment to check it out myself. – ClockworkSoul 14:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure on the authenticity of the line, but the translation of zut is wrong. Zut means "darn!" unless I've learned nothing in my 3 years of French.--Penarestel 22:39, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

So what's the difference between "damn" and "darn"? PeteVerdon 15:30, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Depends on where you are in the world. One can be offensive and the other not.--Penarestel 05:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

When I was in high school in the 70s, classmates used to speak of someone being "zooted," meaning drunk or high. That made me think of the suit as something you'd wear in the context where people would be zooted, or where the wearer intends to be. I've also seen the use of "high-zoot" to mean powerful or expensive, which makes me doubt that the word came from a mispronunciation of "suit." 163.151.2.10 (talk) 14:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Zoot Suit Riots

I am uncomfortable with the biased approach to discussing the race riots here. A more unbiased approach is suggested.

You need to sign your comment. {Registered editor snobbery!} You also need to specify exactly what it is you think is biased. Tmangray 00:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

removal of pachuca

I removed Pachuca as see also. This is a city, not equal to a Pachuco in the USA sense of the word. Additionaly, females associated with pachucos rarely(if ever)wore the same clothes as their male counterparts...I am also removing See also for the tom and jerry cartoon as this is not an existing article. If it were, it would still be better as a "reference in popular culture" --Ccosta 00:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Broken link

The external link at the bottom doesn't seem to work... Is there a new address for it? -Russia Moore 01:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Rowing Zoot Suit

So how in the world did Zoot Suit come to mean the things we wear while rowing? The tight rowing suits look nothing like "real" Zoot Suits. Strange indeed. Perhaps the ironic Aussie sense of humour at work?--ABVS 05:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Article Improvement?

Great umbrage is taken to the recent editing of this page which eliminated "African Americans" and "Filipino Americans" from the listed ethnicities who "popularized" this style of clothing in the late 1930s and 1940s and also to the removal of the reference "Harlem Jazz culture" under the "History" heading.

The current interest of the WikiProject Mexican American should not override the fact that the zoot suit is indisputably an "invention" of the urban, swing jazz-related, African American "hep cat" culture of the day; and while the Pachuco connection (before, during and after the Los Angeles turmoil of 1943) clearly warrants extended discussion, it is tangential to the primary subject; and a separate page should be created to address this need.

Meanwhile, this page would be greatly enhanced by reverting to the previous wording and including a properly captioned photograph of the renowned Black entertainer Cab Calloway--on stage in the 1940s and wearing his trademark zoot suit--a vision that should be more evocative and symbolic than any other to aficionados of the style, be they Afro-, Filipino-, Anglo- or Latino-American. (Additionally, a bona fide pop culture icon like Calloway certainly deserves top billing over the cartoon "hepster" imitations--Li'l Abner and Tom and Jerry--who are now featured on the page.)

The Black-oriented films "Stormy Weather" (1943) and "Malcolm X" (1992) should also be listed with the others on this page for their celebration of the zoot suit; and Wikipedia's "Cab Calloway" page (itself greatly in need of enhancements) along with "The Zoot Suit and Style Warfare" page at <http://invention.smithsonian.org/centerpieces/whole_cloth/u7sf/u7materials/cosgrove.html> (among other references) should be listed on this page and any tangential ones that may be created. (151.200.123.149 06:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC))

These are all good points. I especially agree with your statement about restructuring the article to be more about the Zoot Suit rather than cartoons. Per your comments I have looked for public domain images of Cab Calloway in the trademark clothing, but have only found the copy-righted variety on the web. Did you have any picture resources in mind? I have been meaning to improve this article for some time just haven't found the time. I encourage you to be bold and edit the article yourself (i.e., it may be a long time before anyone else gets around to it). Thank you for the comments!--Will.i.am 21:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I concur with the umbrage re: removing the actual origin of the zoot suit. The zoot suit first appears in the 1930s in New York as "drapes" among African American youths. The name "zoot suit" appears to be original to Los Angeles and pachuco slang, and was subsequently used even in NYC. Tmangray 06:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The Introduction and Table of Contents for Mauricio Mazón's book, "The Zoot-Suit Riots: The Psychology of Symbolic Annihilation" is available at <http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exmazzoo.html>. Published in 1984 by University of Texas Press, this information may help clarify needed additions that pertain to Latino and El Paso ("El Chuco"), Texas aspects of this article.

In addition, "Pachuco, Tirilon, and Chicano" by Lurline H. Coltharp is available through JSTOR or the original journal "American Speech," Vol. 50, No 1/2 1975, pp. 25-29 for researched linguistic information on the subject terms.

--chacal la chaise 06:14, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Low Waist / High Waist / Pleats

I noticed while reverting vandalism that someone had changed "low waisted" to "high waisted". A small correction or subtle vandalism? I don't know if zoot suits SHOULD be high or low waisted, so I'll leave it in someone else's hands.

When Zoot Suits were first around, they were "high waisted". So technically, the suits should be "high waisted". My reference is my grandfather who was around for the peak of Zoot Suit popularity and was an avid wearer in his heyday. -ExodusFire

High Waisted is right.

I have always heard "reet pleats" paired with Zoot Suit in "hip" talk, ie: "A Zoot Suit With Reet Pleats". Shouldn't that get a mention.

Capitalization

I think we should come to a consensus over the capitalization of 'zoot suit' across Wikipedia. The article itself uses two forms of capitalization, 'zoot suit' and 'Zoot Suit', as does the Pachuco article. Personally I think it should be all lower-case but that's just my humble opinion. -Andreas Toth (talk) 23:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Wedding Image

The men wearing the suits for the wedding are definitelt not Zoot suits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.94.35.227 (talk) 11:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes you are right, they are wearing Zoot Tuxes, not actual Zoot Suits. HuronKing, Tuesday January 20th 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.202.25 (talk) 04:36, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Creation

(comments moved here from article space)

I am not certain who gave the name “Zoot Suit” to this garment, but it was my father, Nathan “Toddy” Elkus who actually designed the garment later so named. It was back in the spring of 1939 when my Dad took a regular suit, marked it with a host of chalk marks and sent off to Blankson Clothes of New York have a sample garment made. I was there when the sample suit came back from New York and my Dad opened the package. He was furious because Blankson had made the suit with regular pockets instead of slash pockets and had a regular button front instead of a fly front. Long distance calls in those days were a costly rarity, but my Dad called Mr. Irving Blank and insisted upon having both slash pockets and a fly front.

Mr. Blank refused to make the suit with those extra styling details remarking, “A dozen eggs won’t guarantee a sponge cake will rise!” My Dad insisted and finally Mr. Blank told him he’ll manufacture the suits, but he’ll have to pay for them up-front with the order and the sale would be final, absolutely no returns, period. My Dad airmailed a certified check that day for 100 suits, a major cutting in those days….and the rest is history.

When the suits arrived 6 weeks later, he named the suits the “Thunderbird” and toyed with the idea of a window display showing the then popular “Ace” suit in a coffin, with the new “Thunderbolt” (later to be named the zoot suit) on a mannequin standing on the coffin. But the manager of the store reminded him that he had hundreds of older suits in stock and couldn’t afford to declare all of them dead. So the Thunderbolt went on display as a new model in all its glory in my Dad’s store, Todd’s Clothes in Detroit. It was an immediate success. The details of the original suit: 32” length coat on a 40 regualr, with a 20” shoulder, single breasted, fly front, slash pockets, wqith a one piece back. The trousers were a high rise, pg legs with a 30 inch knee and 15 inch bottom. With all due respect to Mr. Fox, who may have named it the Zoot Suit, it was my father, Nathan Elkus, who created it. Philip Elkus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.108.142.128 (talk • contribs)

I've moved the above comments (copy of a 1996 letter to the editor of the NY Times) here from the article and reworded the "Creation" paragraph to mention all three claimants, with citations for each. Since even the NY Times seems ambivalent about naming a creator, until some tiebreaker information from a reliable source is found, readers will have to read the citations and decide for themselves. --CliffC (talk) 03:37, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I propose the merger of the Creation and History sections. In doing so, the various stories can be laid out regarding the origin of the style and the name. Tmangray (talk) 05:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Happy new year! --CliffC (talk) 17:44, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Capitalization revisited

Seeing as how nobody responded to this inquiry, I plan to change all instances of the terms "Zoot suit", "Zoot Suit", etc., on Wikipedia to lower case form, "zoot suit". Any objections? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 16:53, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, the New York Times lowercases the term, examples here. --CliffC (talk) 02:26, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

You are wrong. In the 1943 Laurel and Hardy movie "Jitterbugs" they drive round in a van with "The original Zoot Suit Band" on the side. So not only is your assumption its in lower case wrong, you also lack in the wiki or page any reference to the concept of a "Zoot Suit Band" which were extant in the 1940's and 50's and was a distinct style of act.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036055/

2.59.114.197 (talk) 11:38, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

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Pop Culture

I think we need a "Pop Culture" section for various famous appearances of Zoot Suits.

For instance there is a memorable classic "Tom & Jerry" short featuring both characters courting in Zoot Suits.

Also, there was a memorable sequence in Jim Carrey's "The Mask" done in a yellow Zoot Suit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqjq2s_bHPA) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.202.33.17 (talk) 20:49, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Historically, this article stops with Malcolm X

A whole article about Zoot Suits and no mention about pimps at all?

Drsruli (talk) 07:01, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Louis Jordan Movie poster "Caldonia".jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:53, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

two things

one use of pegged in the intro is jargon; spell it out two most of the photos are not that good; comnpar to this one https://www.mylesanthony.co.uk/zoot-suit-style-wedding/ honestly, all the effort into words, and all the pointless debate here in the talk section and no one can find a really decent photo ?????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:197:D00:3CA0:8C25:9FB1:515D:29CA (talk) 16:27, 3 June 2023 (UTC)