Talk:Mozart's name

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On 26 September 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Names of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Deletion debate

For the May 2005 deletion debate on this article, see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Mozart's name.

Who used multiple-language versions of their name?

I think it's probably better to keep the wording that says that multiple-language names were characteristic of composers, not emigrants. The reason is that Beethoven went by "Luigi" and "Louis" despite the fact that, to my knowledge, he never set foot in either Italy or France. The crucial bit seems to have been the need to publish in other countries, not necessarily to visit them. Also, a reader of Mozart's name is probably more interested in composers in general than in travellers in general. Opus33 16:57, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't want to question that Mozart probably was exceptional in the degree to which he varied his name over his lifetime, but names in the 18th century weren't as fixed in one particular form as they mostly are today. The way the article is written now, it displays a somewhat naïve and anachronistic surprise at something that was quite common at the time for anyone using different languages in different contexts, including but not excusively composers and other musicians. It is also an anachronism to write that Mozart's name was "shortened" from Wolfgangus to Wolfgang. Use of Latin forms of personal names was common in contexts where Latin was otherwise used, for instance in baptismal records, in school, and at matriculation at university. / up+land 21:58, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In a book "Allt som du trodde du visste men som faktiskt är alldeles fel" [Bokförlaget Semic 2000, Sweden] (meaning about "All that you knew is in fact wrong"), it is mentioned that Mozart himself dropped "Johannes" at the age of 14 because he didn't like it. Ok, not the most reliable source, but just wanted to mention this. ~~SamuliK

For what it´s worth, I agree with up+land above AND deny he was exceptional among cosmopolitans of the time. --83.253.55.89 17:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I recently read that the name mozart has had multiple spellings. We can look at his name reengineer it to a more original form: It is actually Moss+Hart, the z usage is similar to Salzburg. Salſs or Salß+burg the z was used as a glottal stop. The h was optional like Ric()ardo. Double ss are often translated as t example wasser and water. Perhaps he did not want to be Mothart or Moathart. Maybe he did not like Moths. Mos'hart does sound funny for English speakers; the shart part of course. So what does the name Mosa Hart mean? Mosa and Mose are of Biblical etymology... von Mose(15th Century) or better known as Moses (from the Marsh). The e and the a disappear during word formation. Example- Judgment... Hart- I differ on the interpretation of Hart as Harsh. I think it is related to the words Court and Quarter (Square) instead... A Marsh is also a border- for example the Muse river. River-Border-Court. "A court that borders the river." Alright so maybe my explanation sucks. Maybe you can find someone to make this look presentable with the correct annotation.

Theophilus = Gottlieb

Hello, I think that it would be worth to mention the German version of the name Amadeus (Theophilus) - Gottlieb - since several sources (Google for "Gottlieb Mozart") pretend that this was the name that was actually used (until Amadeus or Amadé was preferred) and "Theophilus" was just a formal record in the register.

But I don't want to touch the article myself, I would leave this to someone with better knowledge of German language and Austria (if he can confirm the statement above). (And with better knowledge of English of course ;-)

err, forgot to sign --Kavol 10:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Amadè error

The text uses Amadè, while I believe the correct accent is Amadé.

It could perhaps be mentioned that this is simply the French form.

I also echo the comments about Gottlieb

David Vaughn —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.224.103.123 (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

No, if one looks at the actual signatures, it is/was Amadè and NOT Amadé. QwertyUSA 13:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto. Deutsch (cited in article) gives the grave-accented form, and he was a careful scholar. Opus33 17:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note that the German usage is to use the acute accent (é), because German doesn't really use the grave accent, and I guess because it is to denote that the pronounciation should be something like "ah-ma-day", where the stress on the "e" is indicated by the acute accent (as opposed to French, which actually distinguishes between a "eh" (long e, acute accent) sound and a "e" (short e, grave accent) sound). mdl27 23:24, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So what does the above mean -- was it written with a grave accent, but pronounced as modern-day é would be? If so, wouldn't it be more appropriate to make modern readers pronounce it properly by writing it with an acute accent?--Geke (talk) 20:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's really pretty simple: Mozart himself spelled it with a grave accent, so we have to spell it with a grave accent. Opus33 (talk) 22:17, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, sorry. As I've since learned, Mozart freely used either accent (or indeed, no accent). The choice of Amadè in the article text follows Deutsch, but in fact I can't find out which spelling Mozart used most often. See new text in article for details and source. Opus33 (talk) 17:23, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Chrystostom

"Chrystostom" must be a misspelling, as the correct spelling is Chrysostom, from Greek Chrysostomos (golden mouth), latin Chrysostomus. It has nothing to do with Christ (Christos). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.212.171.26 (talk) 08:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed it, in two places.--Geke (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Intro

I think it would be better to leave the baptismal names out of the intro. They played a very minor role in Mozart's life, and because they are in Latinized form, they aren't even really all that "official". Let's let the main text of the article explain all the angles here, and then the reader can decide for herself what to call Mozart. Opus33 (talk) 18:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who knows the whereabouts of Mozart's two sons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.80.88 (talk) 20:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I presume they are dead. 159.50.249.150 (talk) 09:57, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Amadé

"Amadé" looks obviously as a short for "Amadeus", but I don't know if he tried to write in French, like when he wrote "Cher papa", when he wrote "Amadé", as the French would have been "Amédée", maybe there's some other old French form that looks like "Amédé", I don't know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 (talk) 17:55, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@87.91.51.235 No, this is a mistake. Mozart called himself "Amadé", refined from German. From Germany with love. Stephphie (talk) 16:05, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Did Mozart sign Amade on his marriage contract?

The article states that Mozart signed his 'middle name' as Amade on his marriage contract and that's what Deutsch seems to say as well (on p.204, see here). However looking at a scan of the contract from the British Library, I am having a real hard time convincing myself that Mozart signs his middle name as Amade. Am I just reading things incorrectly? Tripler06 (talk) 16:34, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) JuniperChill (talk) 00:37, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mozart's name → Names of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart – Harmonization with similar articles Juwan (talk) 23:50, 26 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 04:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please, no. "Mozart's name" is pithy and direct, "Names of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" is literalist and verbose, and it fails to address the question in people's minds ("What was Mozart's name?"). Opus33 (talk) 01:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I could add one other point: it's not clear that, in the long run, "Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" is going to last as the consensus version of Mozart's name (see article for context here). The Mozarteum in Salzburg, which is uncontroversially the leading organization for the scholarly study of Mozart, is now opting for "Amadé"; see [1]. We can keep our article neutral between different points of view by using just "Mozart" as a neutral title. Opus33 (talk) 02:33, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support its about Wolfgang Amadeus rather than the surname even though Mozart's name is primary for "Mozart". Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:41, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. In no circumstance should we be moving away from concise "X's Y" titles to the clunky "Y of X" that weigh down so many articles; if anything, the opposite should be happening, because there's no reason for titles to sound stilted and unnatural. I'd be less strongly opposed to Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's name, but the problem there is that it sort of begs the question. The Mozart bit isn't in dispute, so this concise title seems the best approach. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 06:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Opus33 and Tamzin. The current title is much more WP:NATURAL and WP:CONCISE, and placing "Mozart" first makes it easier to search for. Plus the point of the article is that Wolfgang Amadeus was not always/exactly his name. (No reason we can't create the proposal as a redirect, though.) Station1 (talk) 07:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Names of Mozart. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:42, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Classical music has been notified of this discussion. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 04:51, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Opus. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:58, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per all the good arguments above. And, as Tamzin pointed out, other unnecessarily verbose article names and categories ought to be reverted to their original names – no one will confuse any other member of the Mozart family with WAM. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Mozart first is good for search, and the question if "Wolfgang Amadeus" is even his name is the question of the article. The Salzburg Festival says "W.A." for a good reason. "Amadeus" is common but in most cases wrong. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per the logical comments of those above. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:18, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Names of Mozart, status quo is confusing and unnatural imo

Kowal2701 (talk) 14:58, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.