Talk:Cello rock

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Notability

Wikipedia:WikiProject Music/Notability and Music Guidelines? Hyacinth 22:41, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

That does not address music genres. What to do? 151.203.70.241 18:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

This list of rock genres is ridiculous. What next, kazoo rock?

A cello is a far cry from a kazoo, my friend. Try playing one of each some time. 151.203.70.241 18:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Kazoos rock your socks! --200.78.90.8 07:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

My teacher once accused his cello of mating with a kazoo. It was having a bad voice day. 141.154.74.73 16:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Is this a joke?

Yes.

I agree that this should be taken out of the "rock subgenres" box. Bangadrian 02:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

well it's definitely a sub-genre of rock. if you look on myspace there must be at least 100 bands doing it, and apocalyptica's albums get to the top 10 in european album charts.

Mistake?

"Pioneered by a Finnish quartet (now trio), Apocalyptica originally played cello rock covers of heavy metal songs, including ones by Metallica."

Shouldn't that say trio (now quartet) because in the current band members Apocalyptica says four people. -Iopq 11:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

They started out as quartet, became a trio and are back to a quartet now. So "quartet" will do just fine

Cello quartet, then cello trio now cello trio with a drummer, might as well remove the number, since string ensambles usualy called quarted or trio and the such indicate the number of string players.--Dryzen 18:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed "(now trio)" because it's silly. Regardless of what you might say about string ensemble naming convention, saying "now trio" implies that there are 3 people in the band, not 3 cellists plus others, and "now trio plus a drummer" would just look silly and I'm pretty sure somebody would say "so...doesn't make them still a quartet?" Daedae (talk) 18:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

This Sentence is Ridiculous

"Apocalyptica has caused a veritable musical revolution on the European continent." Bangadrian 02:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• It's POV (possibly on wheels), is what it is. They seem pretty cool, but I hadn't heard of them until about ten minutes before I submitted this edit. Hardly a "musical revolution." --81.155.69.107 05:52, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources?

"The popularity of Cello rock is steadily on the rise, as artists such as Metallica and Marilyn Manson lend support to the fledgling groups"

Says who? Are there sources for what seems like a somewhat arbitrary statement? The Son Of Nothing 14:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

yeah you should be able to find sources for apocalyptica supporting metallica and rasputina supporting marilyn manson

Each group supporting one group dosen't meant support such groups...--Dryzen 18:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The number of different ensembles does speak to popularity, though one wonders if the popularity is not a general phenomenon but rather one in the sub-population of young classical musicians (who might be understandably be enthusiastic to find musical outlets that are both non-antique and popular to those of a similar age). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.93.33.133 (talk) 05:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

LOSER! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.229.89 (talk) 20:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Minor Tidying

Replaced "ones" with songs. Ones is not a pronoun, what are ones? Sounds un... encylopedic.

Removed "nothing but". Nothing but works when several things are expected, but only one is present. Wearing nothing but a hat means they are otherwise naked. In this case they were wearing corsets and other clothing. Though i would love to see Melora wearing nothing but a corset.

Apeiron242

Ordering of the list of cello rock bands

The list should probably be alphabatized or made its own article mcwiggin 18:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it should be alphabetized. However, I do not believe it is relevant enough to constitute being its own article. I'm going to be bold and go ahead and alphabetize it. Xthepicturex 00:30, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I went and did that yesterday, but CA387 took issue with it. I'll leave it for now, I suppose.Xthepicturex 14:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

That revert was a mistake on my part; I'd meant to revert to a different version. Sorry about that. --CA387 15:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I've re-alphabetized it. Xthepicturex 16:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Needs some definite revision

Almost all the information in this article is just given, with no references or anything. Origins in Germany and Russia? Who? List the composers/cellists who influenced the genre, you cant just say 'it had influences' in order to legitimize it. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.103.137.136 (talk • contribs)

Revision

As this article recently failed an Afd, I've done some revision to keep it in line with Wikipedia policies (most notably WP:OR). I've tried to keep in line with Just plain Bill said in his comment:

This article comprises links to bands or performers with primary cello emphasis... where's the OR?

That said, I've reorganized/alphabetized the article, and deleted original research and content about the bands themselves—this belongs on the bands' individual pages. --CA387 22:10, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The basic description of the use of cellos in rock is factual and did not merit removal. Badagnani 03:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

If it's factual, then please cite your sources and demonstrate it. --CA387 05:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The basic information in question is cited in the articles about the two most important groups, Apocalyptica and Rasputina. Other statements in the article are questionable (such as the statement that cello rock dates to the 1930s), and should be discussed here. Badagnani 06:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Upon looking for sources, I've yet to find anything to show that "Cello Rock" is anything more than rock bands with cellos—something stated by Just plain Bill. Keeping the links to the articles is certainly reasonable, but in quoting from the articles we do nothing but add original research. Both Apocalyptica and Rasputina are certainly notable—which is why the content in question should still be around: in their individual articles. At the present, without any context, we don't have much to gain by cutting and pasting various parts of the individual articles on this page. --CA387 06:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not talking about any of that; I'm talking about the basic information about the genre. It's not "rock with cellos," as many groups use cello as a backup or adjunct instrument; it's the use of cello(s) as a primary melodic/harmonic instrument in rock. This article strives to document this in a thorough and accurate manner. Badagnani 06:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've made that distinction in my edits. --CA387 16:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

As requested by Badagnani:

Cello rock is a subgenre of rock music characterized by the use of cellos (as well as sometimes also other bowed string instruments such as the violin and viola) as primary instruments, alongside or in place of more traditional rock instruments such as electric guitars, electric bass guitar, and drum set.

Says who? I can see how cellos seem to be quite prevalent in rock music these days, but it seems to me if we're building an encyclopedia article, we should mention all occurrences of cellos in bands, and not just bands that are primarily cello-based. Part of a good encyclopedia article is demonstrating the history of the subject—and with bands preceding Apocalyptica using cellos, it seems that they certainly deserve mention.

• My interpretation is that "cello rock" is rock with cellos as primary melodic/harmonic instruments. As such, there are just a few bands doing this, some famous (like Rasputina and Apocalyptica) and some not as famous (like Matson Jones). Rasputina should probably be credited as the originator of the genre, with Apocalyptica second, both being defining bands, with imitators following in their footsteps. A rock band with a cello playing the bass line for a song or two is very common, and would not be "cello rock," although if a band has a full-time cellist who plays soloistically this could possibly also be discussed. There's also the "Rock and jazz" section of the Cello article (we have similar sections for the Oboe article and articles on some other classical instruments). Badagnani 23:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Celli (often in groups of three or more) are used to create a sound, beat, and texture similar to that of familiar rock music, but distinctly reshaped by the unique timbres and more traditional genres of the cello (in particular) and other string instruments used. The celli and other stringed instruments are often electronically amplified and/or electronically modified, and often played in a manner imitative of the sound of electric guitars. They are often combined with other elements typical of rock music such as rock-style vocals and drumming.

Again, I'm not sure who is saying this. Why three or more—because that's what Apocalyptica and Rasputina does? This seems like a violation of WP:OR right here. "Electronically amplified" is pretty much a tautology, all rock music these days tends to be in some way.

Cello rock has been developing slowly over the years, with its direct influences dating as far back as the 1930s in Russia and Germany.

I don't think anyone can find a verifiable source for this.

The popularity of cello rock is steadily on the rise, as groups of the genre are taken as support acts on tour by well known artists. Apocalyptica opened for Metallica in 1996 and co-headlined with Rammstein in 2005; and Rasputina opened for Marilyn Manson in 2002. The genre, however, is still somewhat of a cult phenomenon in the United States music scene.

Again, says who? I don't see any statistics that are cited.

Particularly notable is Apocalyptica (formed 1996), a Finnish quartet (now trio), which has gained considerable notoriety, particularly on the European continent. The group originally played cello covers of heavy metal songs, including songs by Metallica. They now mostly play their own heavy metal based compositions. Also prominent in the genre is Rasputina (formed 1992), an American band that uses distortion effects pedals on their celli. The band is made up of two cellists, song-writer and vocalist Melora Creager, and drummer Jonathon TeBeest.

Here we have two bands that exemplify our current definition of "cello rock". I can see how we could conceivably want to keep this content, as an explanation for the links to their respective main articles.

They are known for their references to the Victorian era and eccentric song subjects, as well as their string of albums since the mid 1990s.

Seems like another case of weasel words.

Primitivity is the project name for cellist Loren Westbrook-Fritts's cello rock. Westbrook-Fritts began by covering songs of Megadeth, and has more recently created original music and classical music converted to metal.

And who, exactly, is she? Surely not notable enough for mention in this article; she doesn't even have her own.[1]

The first cello fronted power trio is Von Cello which consists of cellist Von Cello Aaron Minsky with bass and drums, although the band has expanded to include additional vocals and keyboards. They have released CDs covering genres from classical crossover to "metal cello" a genre coined by Von Cello. Von Cello also stands out as a cellist who has pioneered the (self titled) "celtar" style of playing, that is, playing the cello like a guitar, held over the knees or with a guitar strap over the neck, and strummed and picked with a guitar pick.

Again we have something that shows our current definition of "cello rock". I can see how we could conceivably want to keep this content, as an explanation for the links to their respective main articles.

In addition to cello rock groups that feature celli as the primary melodic instruments, some rock groups and artists have featured acoustic or electric celli as part of the band. In most cases, the cello is not a full member of the band, but is used only for a specific song, but a few artists have featured a cellist as a full band member. Such artists include the singer Poe (featuring cellist Cameron Stone), and the dreamscapes project (featuring cellist Ben Guy).

I've made this distinction in my edits by my titles of subsections. Of the two mentioned, only Ann Danielewski (Poe) seems notable.

A subgenre pioneered by cellist Gideon Freudmann is "Cellobop" (a term he coined), which essentially consists of the cello used in a folk rock context. Freudmann describes the genre thus: "Imagine the passion of a Mozart aria or the fury of a Bartok quartet layered with an R&B sensibility."

"Cellobop" isn't a subgenre; it's a neologism coined by Freudmann to describe his own music. This again would serve well as an intro to a link, but doesn't really serve any purpose as part of the prose. If other people followed Freudmann's style of playing, then I can see how it might merit inclusion.

Cello rock now has record labels devoted solely to the production of music in that genre, such as Vitamin Records.

Nowhere on Vitamin Records's webpage is the term "Cello rock" used.[2]

Cellist Matt Haimovitz, although not a member of a rock band, does a rendition of Jimi Hendrix's famous improvisational version of "The Star-Spangled Banner." Von Cello also does a rendition of the Star-Spangled Banner with full electronic effects that can be heard on his CD, Breaking the Sound Barriers.

I moved Haimovitz to the list of the other cellists in my edits as part of the cleanup. As far as "The Star-Spangled Banner", I don't see anything that merits inclusion as part of the "Cello rock" article. In Haimovitz's own article, perhaps, but not in this one.

• This is a cover of one of the most famous rock songs ever, by a prominent cellist, and as such I believe belongs not in the "bands" section but in some kind of "Other cellists in rock" sections. Badagnani 23:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

A pioneer in the composing of rock cello music books, Aaron Minsky has published over a dozen books with Oxford University Press. Titles include Ten American Cello Etudes and Three American Cello Duets. His music is in the curriculum of many schools, colleges, and adjudication exam organizations, and is performed by cellists around the world. His latest effort is a transcription of the music of the Grateful Dead, entitled Dead Cello.

The Ten American Cello Etudes aren't rock music; nor are the duets. All of this would be suited to Minsky's own page, but not this one. The last sentence might merit inclusion in a subsection of this article assuming reliable sources were cited, but doesn't at the present. --CA387 21:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• Are you sure they have nothing to do with rock? If so, how do you know they have nothing to do with rock? I supposed that the person who added this text did so because these are rock etudes and duets. If they are not, I support deleting this section entirely. It does read like self-promotion. Badagnani 23:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• I remember reading through one of them a while back (I'm a cellist). It was about a train, I believe. -CA387 23:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, in relation to your previous comments:

My interpretation is that "cello rock" is rock with cellos as primary melodic/harmonic instruments. As such, there are just a few bands doing this, some famous (like Rasputina and Apocalyptica) and some not as famous (like Matson Jones). Rasputina should probably be credited as the originator of the genre, with Apocalyptica second, both being defining bands, with imitators following in their footsteps. A rock band with a cello playing the bass line for a song or two is very common, and would not be "cello rock," although if a band has a full-time cellist who plays soloistically this could possibly also be discussed. There's also the "Rock and jazz" section of the Cello article (we have similar sections for the Oboe article and articles on some other classical instruments). Badagnani 23:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there happen to be bands surfacing that use cellos as primary harmonic/melodic instruments. However, we need verifiable sources to show that a) this is what constitutes "cello rock", and b) document the other things you said about Rasputina and Apocalyptica's role in it. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought, including journalism. Keep in mind WP:SYN, which states:

“ Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. ”

The fact that these bands exist does not just justify our current prose, unless sources are found, and cited. --CA387 00:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted again, as you can probably all see. I'd like to reiterate that I completely agree that a growing number of cellists are expanding into more mainstream genres, and that it certainly merits documentation on Wikipedia in some form or another (and as a cellist, it's really nice to see articles that focus on the cello out of the classical music scene). However, as I stated previously, we really need to cite our sources when creating articles; Wikipedia's Policies and Guidelines may be a bit hard-assed sometimes, but it's what separates encyclopedic content from everything else we'd find on the web. If I stumble upon any sources that verify some of the deleted content, I'll certainly restore it with proper citations—hopefully everyone else here will make an effort to look for sources as well. Best, CA387 16:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

New bands

Badagnani, I noticed you added two bands: Hyperion and Angaschmäng. I'm not familiar with either, but since neither are from my part of the world, I can't assume they're not notable. Would it be possible for you to cite reliable third-party sources to keep up the article's verifiability (or even better, create articles on both)? Thanks, CA387 16:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Helen Money

Beautiful, haunting cello rock. produced by Steve Albini and worthy of inclusion here 69.237.154.10 (talk) 01:49, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

This is a pointless classification

You can't define a genre by the instruments used. Using cellos as leads doesn't change the essential nature of the music, any more than playing a blues standard with a guitar makes it different from playing it with a harmonica. Indeed, jazz and blues use a rather disparate set of instruments and there's not a new genre for any given set of leads. It should be noted that some bands consider themselves cello rock (if they do), and if there's some substantial source claiming the existence of the genre, then I guess that's that, but as it is...

I realize this standpoint has been asserted before me, but I felt it should be restated solidly. ASWilson 06:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be...

a Wikiproject Cello Rock, considering the number of bands in this genre? In terms of notability, Rasputina would be on top, they started it. -Red marquis (talk) 21:17, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Cello Metal is an oxymoron

Heavy Metal does not exist without any distorted guitars. No matter who says otherwise. Tried, sourced and true. It's the stone pillar, the one invulnerable rule of the genre. I agree to the possibility of Cello Rock seeing as we have other such genres as Piano Rock that go far back to the 50s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.118.4 (talk) 03:03, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Redirect to Progressive Rock

Why does this redirect to progressive rock? Cello rock in no way implies a band has any progressive elements, the page on progressive rock has NOTHING on cello use, and I see no consensus behind the decision. Ganondox (talk) 09:17, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

The redirect here is not helpful and not justified. Whatever cello rock is, it is definitely neither a subgenre of nor synonym for progressive rock. It isn't well-characterized as a form of symphonic rock, either. What community steps are necessary to undo ILIL's redirect? The change claims to be due to talk page activity, but I can't find any conversation to support that. AndrewBroz (talk) 04:52, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Removed the merge template, as I can't see any support at all. Klbrain (talk) 06:37, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Incorporate & Redirect to Cello Page Section on Popular Music

In its current state, this page seems like it would fit best under the cello in popular music, jazz, & world music section of the cello page & can be incorporated/redirected there. Any points of view on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndrewBroz (talk • contribs) 19:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)